By Curt_Anderson June 8, 2024 10:10 pm Category: Philosophy (0.0 from 0 votes) Rules of the Post Write A New Article How To Post Here Rate this article (5=best, 0=poor)

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose an event has two possible explanations. The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

In the thread about Jeffrey Epstein and Trump, Ponderer mentioned that Occam's razor could be applied. She meant that it applied when explaining Trump's reluctance to declassify the Epstein files. But it also applies to Epstein's death.

To believe that Epstein committed suicide you have assume one thing: that he was motivated to commit suicide and jumped (off his cot) at the first opportunity. What did he have to look forward to? There would be a humiliating trial, a conviction based on victim testimony, and a long stint in prison where he'd be marked as a pedophile rapist. I've heard that's low on the prison pecking order.

For it to be murder, you have to make separate assumptions about all the needed participants and their roles to make it happen. And you need to assume that none of the conspirators talked or will talk. Not to mention that people who were invited to be in the conspiracy but declined, never talked.

Comments Start Below

by HatetheSwamp on June 9, 2024 4:50 am No, bruh. You raised an issue about Trump. There's more than two possible explanations about that. Does pb think that Epstein was wacked by the CIA or another agency of our dysfunctional and corrupt government? NO. Does pb think, based on what we know about Epstein, and the circumstances surrounding his death, that it's possible. D@ng straight! It strikes me that our two posters most blindly in love with the Swamp are defensive about the suggestion that something untoward took place. by Curt_Anderson on June 9, 2024 7:30 am HtS, Occam’s razor still applies. It is not definitive, but more assumptions means a scenario is less likely. You imagine a vast and complicated conspiracy involving murder. I don’t believe you can keep that kind of thing under wraps. At least I don’t assume you can keep it under wraps. Take the fake electors scheme conspiracy as an example. A good number of the participants have already plead guilty and many of the participants have blabbed (inadvertently in the case of Rudy Giuliani). That even though people are facing prison, fines, and disbarment. I guess to you it makes sense. You have a notion about “the swamp“ and how it is a nefarious cabal out to screw the little guy like you. Even more bizarrely, you think that Donald Trump is anti-swamp despite his history of shafting suppliers and contractors and his various fraudulent schemes which we know about through hundreds of lawsuits in which he has been found liable. by oldedude on June 9, 2024 7:52 am Curt- I take your point about the kabala of huge conspiracies. In your support, I am with you on some conspiracies. Although you are sure to disagree with most of mine; 911 being done by the US government, there were no nukes in Iraq, UFOs (which I frankly don't care about more than anything), the "mustang" ad Denver International AP and the underground system for FEMA, and a few others. But that's my point. I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of push-back on those I mentioned and how the "conspiracy" sounds to them. That's kind of been my point. Not that it's impossible or even implausible, I just don't see it. It's a personal view. Flip side it, I think Maxwell was in to the game far enough to know trumpster couldn't/ wouldn't give her any sort of pardon. Why? Mostly because she is the worst possible person to do that for. In the world. And she knows it. She has also been keeping her mouth shut on the rest of the book, letting it be released at the court's whim. For a guy that can't see money flow in and out of accounts and make sense of that, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Of course, it's still about trumpster, so there's that. by HatetheSwamp on June 9, 2024 8:00 am I don't imagine nuthin. Do you imagine that Trump is the hair-sniffin pedo that so much video evidence all but proves "that feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" is? Why do YOU suppose Trump'd "hedge," etc.? The fact that there seems to be some sort of inside joke among deranged TrumpHaters fascinates me... sorta like the Biden Tara Reid jokes MAGAs guffaw over, eh? by Curt_Anderson on June 9, 2024 8:42 am OD, I had not heard about the Denver airport Mustang much less the conspiracy about it. There’s a good article about it, which I link below. I have the same sense about UFO that you apparently do. I don’t think any Americans were involved in the 911 attack, but they were certainly a lot of Americans screw ups that allow it to happen and mistakes made afterwards. HtS, You say you don’t imagine nothing. You are being unnecessarily modest. forbes.com by HatetheSwamp on June 9, 2024 9:50 am You're wrong Curt. I imagine nuthin and I don't know nuthin about nuthin. by Curt_Anderson on June 9, 2024 10:35 am “You're wrong Curt. I imagine nuthin and I don't know nuthin about nuthin.”. —HtS Who am I to disagree? by HatetheSwamp on June 9, 2024 10:43 am You're our Deranged-TrumpHater-in-Chief. by Indy! on June 9, 2024 10:59 am Your starting point is wrong - you're painting a picture where Epstein is just another garden variety pedophile when he was obviously so much more than that. But even if we take your (excuse me for being honest) naive assumptions as the truth - you still have a lot of problems. Pedophiles are narcissists by nature - therefore committing suicide based on the idea they might have problems if they ever go to jail is a stretch. Plus Epstein - according to his lawyer - was deeply involved in his defense like a guy not even thinking about suicide. Then there is the past - he had already gotten off for pedophile activities in the past. Then - after all that - we get back to my original point. If the cops were truly interested in putting Epstein away for his crimes - he would have been in solitary confinement away from anyone who could hurt him and not allowed to have anything that might lead to suicide. This is not conspiracy - this is the way important defendants are treated when the people in charge want to make sure nothing goes wrong... especially after someone had already tried to murder Epstein. I now return you to Curt and his Children's Hour Explanation. 🙄 by HatetheSwamp on June 9, 2024 11:04 am Well said, Indy!! Knowing what is known about Epstein, it's hard to think he'd commit suicide. by Indy! on June 9, 2024 11:09 am Just read OD's post. No idea who he's talking about with those "conspiracies". No one is claiming the "US Government" did 9/11 - absolutely no one. There are claims that individuals inside the government were involved - but no one is claiming it was a huge conspiracy involving the entire U.S. government. This is the kind of gaslighting meant to keep the rubes in the dark - by changing the narrative so it sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. Never heard the Iraq/nukes thing - suspect it's OD's imagination again. There is an underground area under the Denver Airport - acknowledged by the Denver airport themselves. I would suspect most airports where that is possible they also have underground areas because it makes sense for getting around without dealing with frequent flyers. UFOs exist. I throw a garbage can lid into the air, snap a photo - if no one can identify it from my photo - it's a UFO. Simple. But at least you got the Maxwell part right (at least part-ly... excuse the pun). Maxwell's play was not becoming Epstein. She knows that wasn't a decision Epstein would make. So she put her evidence in good hands and let the right people know she was willing to do a little time to stay alive. And btw - this fact also undercuts Curt's Car 54 Where Are You? explanation that Epstein just decided to off himself because he was facing jail time. Maxwell knew she would be facing the same kind of treatment in jail - yet she had no problem taking the fall. by Indy! on June 9, 2024 11:17 am Forgot the Occam's Razor part. How does these things apply to Occam's, Curt... 1) The previous attempt on Epstein's life (when he had no business having a cellmate in the first place) 2) Epstein being put back in a cell with suicide materials 3) The guards falling asleep - AFTER the first attempt on Epstein's life and being put on notice they needed to pay attention to Epstein 4) The video cameras "failing" a second time when it came to Epstein's cell Occam's razor: The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct. You got 4 right there. by Curt_Anderson on June 9, 2024 12:11 pm Indy, None of your four points contradict what I said, namely if there was a conspiracy resulting in Jeffrey Epstein's death, Epstein was in on it. I likened it to Hermann Goering's suicide in which his guard played a part. For Epstein's death to be murder, you have to assume that the coroner and every forensic pathologist employed by the city and even any independent ones were willing to look at the evidence and swear under oath it was suicide. You said that Epstein's lawyers said Epstein was actively involved in his own defense, presumably planning for his future. Maybe, but I couldn't find any articles reporting that. I did find articles in which Epstein's lawyers blame the prosecution, the judge and everybody else for the circumstances that resulted in Epstein's suicide. businessinsider.com by oldedude on June 9, 2024 7:46 pm For the completely uninformed that have actually argued several of these several times. So obviously, his complete lack of referencing is nothing but a ruse for agreeing with them in his tin foil hat on. 1. 9/11 conspiracy theories. There are several that anyone that can read a paper or watch a TV should know of). indy was one that actually said steel could not melt (which every 6 year old in Pueblo, CO knew when I was a kid because 1/3 of the city worked for the steel mill). 2. WMD in Iraq. You've actually argued this one several times. Along with po and donna. You've never changed your mind on it and have always said there were no WMD found. (FYSA, "nukes" is only one type of WMD. That definition changed in, oh, I dunno, the 1990's) 3. The mad stallion DEN- Conspiracy theorists have linked the Denver International Airport (DEN) to the Illuminati, Freemasons, and shadowy government operations for decades. And its bizarre murals, gargoyles, and ominous horse statue — which accidentally killed its creator — have certainly given them plenty of material. en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org allthatsinteresting.com by Curt_Anderson on June 9, 2024 8:06 pm "ominous horse statue — which accidentally killed its creator" They say "accidentally killed". But was it? I've been through that airport several times. I don't believe I ever saw that mustang. I'll be connecting there next month, I hope to see it. I have been in their underground. No scary. It's a subway system that whisks passengers to their terminal. by oldedude on June 10, 2024 12:02 am The evil Mustang is seen as you're driving in from Pena Blvd. If you have the time (and you have to leave the TSA Area), you can get an uber if you want. The tin foil part of that is the eyes are actually an identification system for people that have been chosen by the government to survive nuclear war. It is silver instead of white, representing the anti-Christ in the Bible. One (of several) other tin foil hat issues. The "underground" as the article describes isn't the "real" underground, which is under the runways. This is the area under (a lot of) concrete that will survive the last war (re: the horse). FEMA has been stockpiling things there for the past few decades. This area has been chosen from global citizens approved by the invisibles of true global leaders. This area combined with NORAD caves, are what will be the major living human beings and food sources for the "New World Order." These are the best scientists, etc. that can move us into a net zero carbon use planet. This is much like what trumpster was talking about with his "smart cities" (I got the name wrong) where these chosen people have the ability to actually save the planet after WWIII. Welcome to Denver International Airport! by Indy! on June 10, 2024 11:46 am Let's address OD's nonsense first because it's the easiest... 1) Baldfaced lie - plain and simple. None of that is true, nor does it address what I said and OD couldn't back it up if his precious guns were hanging in the balance. 2) Another lie. OD said "NUKES" in Iraq - not "WMDs". (Cue OD's lame response that "nukes ARE WMDs" 🙄 3) Yes - there are conspiracies about the Denver airport. So? I did not commented on that aspect. by Indy! on June 10, 2024 11:55 am Curt... For Epstein's death to be murder, you have to assume that the coroner and every forensic pathologist employed by the city and even any independent ones were willing to look at the evidence and swear under oath it was suicide. Nope. First off - what "oath" are you talking about? Epstein's death meant there was no court action. Secondly, there were differing opinions on what actually happened. Dr. Michael Baden is the one claiming it was nothing more than a suicide, however he has no official standing. He's just a paid opinion guy who says whatever his CLIENT - in this case the state of NY - WANTS him to say. Other experts involved in the autopsy have claimed it was a murder. See below... So you couldn't find any articles that means it didn't happen? Well I guess there's no reason to discuss anything with you. 🙄 nytimes.com by Curt_Anderson on June 10, 2024 12:20 pm Indy, The oath I referred to was any possible inquests. Murder conspirators would have considered that possibility. In other words, the conspirators would need advance agreement and cooperation from the forensic people to swear Epstein committed suicide. Even without any pending court case, coroners make their report and sign the death certificate as a sworn statement. You said his lawyers suspected murder. So that's what I searched unsuccessfully. I said maybe the lawyers said murder, but I found them saying jailers negligence resulted in suicide. Your NYT link is actually about his brother (not the lawyers) suspecting murder. That's because the brother hired "Dr. Baden, a former New York City medical examiner and a Fox News contributor". Need I say more? New York Magazine has more to say: Why You Might Not Want to Believe Michael Baden, Celebrity Pathologist, on Epstein’s Death nymag.com by Indy! on June 10, 2024 6:59 pm Curt... the point remains - there are differing opinions on how Epstein died and more importantly, him and his crimes were swept under the rug after they murdered him (allegedly🙄). by oldedude on June 10, 2024 8:02 pm Let's address indy's nonsense first because it's the easiest... 1) Baldfaced lie - plain and simple. None of that is true, nor does it address what I said and OD couldn't back it up if his precious guns were hanging in the balance. 2A was never mentioned in the posts by me. Only in the little voices in your head (well brain, you think with the other one). My ONLY reference to nukes in this thread. "2. WMD in Iraq. You've actually argued this one several times. Along with po and donna. You've never changed your mind on it and have always said there were no WMD found. (FYSA, "nukes" is only one type of WMD. That definition changed in, oh, I dunno, the 1990's)" You're a fucking liar 3) Yes - there are conspiracies about the Denver airport. So? I did not commented on that aspect. My bet is that you're a paranoid schizophrenic. I was talking to curt. and we were just gaslighting the tin foil hat folks. so unless you're one of those (in this conspiracy), I wasn't talking to you. by Indy! on June 11, 2024 12:23 am There weren’t any WMDs found in Iraq and especially not nukes. That has always been my position. by oldedude on June 12, 2024 6:16 am I agree that's been your "position" which is just stupid, false lies you can't shake yourself from. I put in four citations. They cover the discovery of the weapons, and the most damning evidence of the US having to pay out VA compensation to veterans exposed to both the numerous chemical munitions (sarin, et.al.) that were found, and "experimental" medical procedures (nerve agent "immunizations" et.al.) forced on the troops. These were just wrapped up in a category called "deployment shots." These exposures are major factors in Gulf War Syndrome, which have a loose set of medical issues depending on the person. Mine show up in pre-cancers. I have polycythemia , where my blood makes too much HCT. The blood is too thick so I am subject to aneurysms, strokes, etc (with those affected by GWS, this is about a 300% better chance). Women exposed have a horrible rate of uterine cancer and other reproductive issues along with traditional pancreatic cancer. 1. The Secret Casualties of Iraq’s Abandoned Chemical Weapons It was August 2008 near Taji, Iraq. They had just exploded a stack of old Iraqi artillery shells buried beside a murky lake. The blast, part of an effort to destroy munitions that could be used in makeshift bombs, uncovered more shells. Two technicians assigned to dispose of munitions stepped into the hole. Lake water seeped in. One of them, Specialist Andrew T. Goldman, noticed a pungent odor, something, he said, he had never smelled before. He lifted a shell. Oily paste oozed from a crack. “That doesn’t look like pond water,” said his team leader, Staff Sgt. Eric J. Duling. The specialist swabbed the shell with chemical detection paper. It turned red — indicating sulfur mustard, the chemical warfare agent designed to burn a victim’s airway, skin and eyes. All three men recall an awkward pause. Then Sergeant Duling gave an order: “Get the hell out.” 2. U.S. troops found nearly 5,000 abandoned chemical weapons in Iraq from 2004 to 2011: report American troops found nearly 5,000 abandoned chemical weapons in Iraq from 2004 to 2011, but their discoveries were kept secret by the U.S. government, the New York Times reports. According to the 10,000-word, eight-part interactive report ("The Secret Casualties of Iraq's Abandoned Chemical Weapons") by C.J. Chivers published on the paper's website late Tuesday, at least 17 American service members and seven Iraqi police officers were exposed to nerve or mustard agents in Iraq after 2003. On at least six occasions, American troops and American-trained Iraqi troops were wounded by the abandoned munitions, but news of the encounters was neither shared publicly nor widely circulated among the troops, the victims told the Times. Others said they were told to be vague or deceptive about what they found. "'Nothing of significance’ is what I was ordered to say,” Jarrod Lampier, a retired Army major, said of the 2006 discovery of 2,400 nerve-agent rockets at a former Republican Guard compound, the largest chemical weapons discovery of the war. The paper also published heavily redacted intelligence documents it obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. 3. Do Reports of WMD Found in Iraq Vindicate George W. Bush? WMD were found in Iraq but does it matter? The New York Times published an article this week that has re-ignited a 12-year-old debate: Was then-President George W. Bush right about Iraq? The report examined U.S. service personnel's encounters with abandoned chemical weapons in Iraq – and some conservatives were quick to pounce on the story as evidence that claims by Bush in the lead-up to the war that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction were true and that the United States' 2003 invasion was justified. The article by Times reporter C.J. Chivers focused on U.S. soldiers who suffered from exposure to the sulfur mustard and other nerve gases which emitted from the bombs. According to the story, about "5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs" were found scattered across Iraqi soil. The U.S. government buried the cases from both the public and the troops. As a result, injured soldiers did not receive proper medical treatment. According to the PACT act, reasons for filing VA claims (equal to a "workers' comp" from a company that knowingly placed employees in danger and doing nothing about it) are; burning of refuse in the area that contained harmful chemicals, exposure to toxic and chemical agents, exposure to untested medical products, burning of oil fields, etc. Inspectors uncover chemical shells in Iraq UN inspectors looking for Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction have made their first serious find: 11 empty warheads for 122-millimetre rockets, and a similar warhead which “requires further evaluation”. The inspectors say they were not in the weapons declaration Iraq made in December, and are meant for chemical weapons. Iraq denies this. Chemical munitions are among the more likely items the inspectors might find. Iraq used thousands of chemical rockets and shells, filled with mustard, sarin and VX gas, against Iranian troops and Kurdish civilians in the 1980s. UN weapons inspections before 1998 found documents suggesting that Iraq retained at least 6000 of the 16,000 chemical munitions it claimed to have used against Iran. nytimes.com yahoo.com usnews.com newscientist.com by Indy! on June 12, 2024 11:15 am Abandoned weapons that were unusable. Yes, we all know the story. And so far as your personal health problems? Sorry to hear that - I would wish it on my worst enemy. But now you know why I did not sign up myself and why I still encourage people to not sign up... because our government lies to us when it comes to the military and the war. Those weapons were useless to Saddam - yet they send soldiers in to expose themselves to them anyway. I was not going to "serve my country" by getting myself killed or exposed to some life changing toxic chemical to help support some Fox talking point and a failed president trying to resurrect his re-election viability. by Indy! on June 12, 2024 11:16 am Ooops... I would *NOT* wish it on my worst enemy. 🙂 by oldedude on June 12, 2024 4:56 pm Abandoned weapons that were unusable. Yes, we all know the story. 1. So you lied by saying there were none, and yet over 125,000 Allied veterans are affected by them. The government (read VA) decided to officially be forced to cover these issues. My symptoms started in 1990. So for the last 30+ years, the government has been telling me that "there's no set of symptoms, so we can't call it anything. If we find out what causes it, we can cover you. If not, we'll just treat the symptoms." All this while people died, and sheeple assholes said "there were no WMDs in Iraq." which fueled the resistance to treat people. 2. The projectile may have been "unusable" but the core (meaning the binary chemicals that produce the final product and kill a mass number of human beings, sheep, cattle, goats, camels, and WTF ever else they have out in the middle of nowhere) is still viable. The warhead can be used for an IED in, say, Miami. If you catch the eastern winds (read this week), it will kill people until the rain makes it heavier than air, or it keeps going to the suncoast. Killing people all the way. by Indy! on June 13, 2024 11:29 am LOL! You blew it, OD. Being the narcissist you are - insisting that you are always front and center in your stupid war stories - you accidentally gave up the ghost! Right here... "My symptoms started in 1990." So your symptoms from WMDs started in 1990, yet George W. Smirk never said we were going into Iraq to get their (alleged) WMDs until after 9/11/2001. Does that date ring a bell for some reason? You might want to google it. 😂 by oldedude on June 14, 2024 6:46 am You're obviously wrong. 1990 was the start of OPERATION DESERT SHIELD, OPERATION DESERT STORM, and OPERATION DESERT CALM. The PACT act went back to 1990, when they started the large burn pits on major bases, and "immunizing" against Sarin agent. Again, you're trapped in only being able to look at a fractions of any issue. I guess you were with your cartel "friends" that would invite you to be a party favor then... So much for an "art" "degree" out of a comic book... dumbass🤣 Oh. You might want to Google it.... Gulf War illness Main article: Gulf War syndrome Many returning coalition soldiers reported illnesses following their action in the war, a phenomenon known as Gulf War syndrome (GWS) or Gulf War illness (GWI). Common symptoms reported are chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, and gastrointestinal disorder.[290] There has been widespread speculation and disagreement about the causes of the illness and the possibly related birth defects. Researchers found that infants born to male veterans of the 1991 war had higher rates of two types of heart valve defects. Some children born after the war to Gulf War veterans had a certain kidney defect that was not found in Gulf War veterans' children born before the war en.wikipedia.org by Indy! on June 14, 2024 12:48 pm Don't get mad at me - get mad at yourself. You're the one who exposed the flaw in your argument. I never said anything at all about GW1 - that was about "saving Kuwait so they could start their democracy!" 🙄 It was NOT about "WMDs™" BTW... how's the Kuwait democracy coming along? DId you military folks hold them to their promise? Or did you just accept a nice $7M "party" for George HW after he was out of office and couldn't be arrested for bribery? by oldedude on June 14, 2024 4:38 pm You're trying to gaslight me yet again. So quit lying. I never said the war was about WMDs. You're lying about that. Typically using your 8-year-old "arguments," I was very clear. You changed the subject (as usual when you're caught), and lied about what was said (also very typical for you). I was talking about when there was exposure in the middle east. In some cases, WMD were involved. Yes, there was a big deal that Sadaam may use Sarin, and other choking, nerve, and binary chemicals against the coalition forces in GULF 1. Just to show what a lying little princess you are; This article is from September 19, 19961991 BLAST IN IRAQ MAY HAVE EXPOSED 5,000 G.I.'S TO GAS The Defense Department announced tonight that more than 5,000 American troops might have been exposed to deadly chemical weapons when a battalion of American soldiers blew up an Iraqi ammunition depot days after the end of the Persian Gulf war. The announcement by the Pentagon raises sharply the number of troops who may have been exposed to sarin, a deadly nerve agent, as a result of the demolition of the Kamisiyah ammunition depot in southern Iraq in March 1991. It will also doubtless prompt speculation about why the information is being disclosed only now, more than five years after the war. Previously, the Pentagon had suggested that only about 300 to 400 troops may have been exposed to the toxic chemicals, and that it knew of only one location within the vast Iraqi ammunition site that may have contained chemical agents at the time of the demolition. That site, a concrete bunker, was destroyed on March 4, 1991. by Indy! on June 14, 2024 5:04 pm You lost. If you were a man - you'd taking your ass whupping like one. by oldedude on June 14, 2024 9:04 pm Sorry princess. You need to run behind daddies' skirts now. Just go away, your bothersome and stupid. And nothing you've said makes sense or was anything I said. If you can prove it, fine. But you can't, otherwise you would have already done it. Go to your cartel butties and have them take your ass like a princess. by Indy! on June 15, 2024 10:59 am Keep it classy - another thing you learned in your military skooling. Go To Top

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