By Hunter28 June 21, 2023 12:54 pm Category: Government (0.0 from 0 votes) Rules of the Post Write A New Article How To Post Here Rate this article (5=best, 0=poor)

I get why Republicans don’t like Joe Biden. They think anyone to the left of Jeb Bush is a godless socialist.

What I don’t understand is why people on the left are disappointed by Biden. And I really don’t understand the contempt that someone like Indy! has for him.

Biden has overcome incredible hurdles to advance progressive priorities.

Back in 2019, it was a question whether any Democrat could beat Trump. Defying most predictions, he won the Democratic nomination and the White House -- by 7 million votes. He did that mostly by being normal and not scaring people. In January of 2021, Democrats won the two special elections in Georgia, giving the Democrats a 50-50 (plus VP) majority in the Senate.

Despite an evenly divided Senate and a slim majority in the House, he passed some of the most consequential and progressive legislation this country has seen since the 1960s. Clinton and Obama had larger Democratic majorities, but they didn’t get nearly as much legislation passed in their first terms. And he persuaded both Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema to pass this legislation. No easy task.

We do not live in a dictatorship, despite the efforts of Donald Trump. To pass legislation, you have to get votes from at least half a chamber. And that means you have to get progressives, liberals and moderates to find common ground. There’s no way to do this without compromise.

It sounds like you are holding Biden to an impossible standard.

So my question for Indy!: If you have so much contempt for Biden, who do you think could have 1) gotten elected, 2) helped Ossoff and Warnock get over the finish line in Georgia, and 3) accomplished more with slim majorities in both houses?

Who is this political superhero?

Comments Start Below

by HatetheSwamp on June 21, 2023 2:29 pm I'm guessing Lenin. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:01 pm OMG. The way you pimp Biden I sure hope he's paying you good money for these posts. First off, I don't have contempt for Biden - I'm just not buying your PR team's garbage characterization of him. He's a doddering old fool who lies every time he opens his mouth and never would have been elected president if not for Obama, Clyburn and the entire D party rigging the game for him. He was in FOURTH place and hadn't won a SINGLE primary before that. Pete freakin' Buttigieg - a small town (failed) mayor who's only selling point was his sexual orientation was doing better than Biden. I treat him the way he DESERVES to be treated - like a failed rightwing politician who had ties to the worst racists of another era and is only occupying the White House because outside of Bernie, the Ds were devoid of viable options and they were never going to run a progressive like Sanders. To answer your questions... 1. ANYBODY. Absolutely ANY D could have defeated Trump because everybody was sick of the Orange Man. Pete, Kamala, Amy... maybe even HILLARY! Bernie's numbers vs. Trump were FAR higher than Biden's. ANY... BODY… (with a pulse). 2. LOL! Biden had nothing to do with it. Everybody knows what "got them over the finish line" - it was Biden's LIE that he was going to give everybody $2000... which immediately became $1400 the minute the election was over. 3. See #1... ANYBODY. Biden has not accomplished ANYTHING out of the ordinary considering the shape the country was in when he took over. You made the LUDICROUS claim he was the most effective prez of the last 50 years when Obama passed HEALTHCARE. Biden is not even the most effective D of the last TEN years. It was the shittiest healthcare imaginable - the GOP healthcare plan - but we're using YOUR standard for "effective" here and Biden hasn't passed ANYTHING ANYWHERE NEAR that one. Biden's list of "accomplishments" is a bunch of empty PR fluff. He gave money to the wealthy LIKE EVERY PRESIDENT BEFORE HIM. That's all. End of story. Anything going to regular Americans outside of the $2000 $1400 checks didn't go thru because he wasn't interested in the "fundamental change" this country needs. And everything Biden DID pass - came with MASSIVE GIVEAWAYS to the Republicans as well. He traded "the largest climate bill in history" (whoop-di-doo...that is the lowest bar ever because NO CLIMATE BILLS WERE PASSED BEFORE) for more OIL DRILLING AND FRACKING that will completely offset whatever good the "climate bill" might bring. Then there is Roe - the biggest step back for progressive ideology in the history of the country. That happened on Biden’s watch and a big part of the reason is because he was on duty with Obama and let McConnell take the Supreme Court pick with absolutely no repercussions. by HatetheSwamp on June 21, 2023 3:04 pm Hunter, Indy! is an old timer here. Actually, on the old SS forum, he entered more posts than anyone...by far. I'll be interested to know his answer to your question but I know that Indy! is very progressive. You should have read his posts trashing Obama Care back in the day. But, yours is a good question. I'd love to know everyone's answer. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:04 pm To peebs... 1. Lenin is dead 2. There are no political "superheros" - merely supervillains and criminals. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:06 pm Like most of my political predictions - everything I said about Obamacare came true. We didn't even get the meager savings Obama said would happen. Prices have increased at the same rate they were increasing before. by Ponderer on June 21, 2023 3:09 pm I agree with everything you said, Hunter. I'm certain that my wife Ponderer does too. by Donna on June 21, 2023 3:10 pm That ^^^^^ was mine. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:19 pm You've definitely moved further right too, btw. Just a little perspective from someone who hasn't been sitting in the boiling water with the other frogs. by Donna on June 21, 2023 3:21 pm I've remained the same. So has my political superhero, Bernie Sanders.\ by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:24 pm Hate to be bearer of bad news, but... No and no. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:25 pm Wait... I really shouldn't judge you. Maybe you were always this far right. But Bernie? Absolutely sold out in the wake of the Biden primary theft. He's gone full democrat. Never go full democrat. In fact, never go democrat at all. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:27 pm However... if you were always this far right - then you're definitely further right than Pondy. Can't have it both ways. 😉 by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:27 pm However... if you were always this far right - then you're definitely further right than Pondy. Can't have it both ways. 😉 by Donna on June 21, 2023 3:31 pm It's impossible to have a rational discussion with you. by Curt_Anderson on June 21, 2023 3:31 pm I notice that in his very long response, Indy never says who his political superhero is that could have won the 2020 election other than the noncommittal "Absolutely ANY D". I don't believe that "Absolutely ANY D" could have won. There is certainly no evidence any other Democrat could have won. I don't think that Biden's closest rivals for the nomination, Bernie Sanders or Warren or Elizabeth Warren, would have won the close states like Georgia, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin or Arizona. I doubt that either would have had coattails to help Warnock or Ossoff. I know for sure that the Democrats would have lost the Senate since both Bernie and Warren would have been replaced by Republicans. Vermont and Massachusetts had GOP governors who would named a Republican replacement had either won the presidential election. The idea that any other random Democrat could have won the nomination is just a fantasy. I recall there were about a dozen Democrats announced their presidential candidacies. They all fell by the wayside. by HatetheSwamp on June 21, 2023 3:37 pm But Bernie? Absolutely sold out in the wake of the Biden primary theft. Not surprisingly, Indy!, I'm the only one here who sees that Biden's gang swiped the 020 nomination. It's so nice to have you back. by HatetheSwamp on June 21, 2023 3:38 pm It's impossible to have a rational discussion with you. Him, too? Hmmmm. by Donna on June 21, 2023 3:43 pm Good arguments, but actually we don't know if any D could have beaten Trump in 2020. I probably agree with all (or possibly almost all - IDK) of Indy's policy positions. What separates people like my wife, Curt, islander, Hunter28 and myself from Indy is that we recognize -- and Hunter28 stated this in his post -- that in a democracy, you often have to negotiate with lawmakers you're diametrically opposed to. Anyone can make a list of legislation they'd like to see become law. The hard part is finding a way to get it passed. The Indys I know don't seem to understand that. by Hunter28 on June 21, 2023 3:54 pm Indy! wrote: ANYBODY. Absolutely ANY D could have defeated Trump Hillary is evidence to the contrary. And if she couldn't beat Trump, most other Dems wouldn't have been able to, either. I'm not surprised you refuse to name a specific person. You would then have to defend that person. This is why I asked you to name a specific person. That way would could have a meaningful discussion comparing the two. Please name that magical candidate who could have defeated Trump in 2020, brought Warnock and Ossoff across the finish line, and would haved accomplished as much as Biden with slim majorities in both Houses. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 3:56 pm I don't recall ever saying anything at all about not negotiating with lawmakers you are diametrically opposed to on this board (or the old one). If anyone can source something, I will surely either take credit for it or explain where you are (as usual) misinterpreting or misrepresenting what i said. In fact, it seems like I am the only person on this board who doesn't draw a line down the middle of American politics according to colors or faux "party lines” and pretend like the other side is pure evil or something. I show the same contempt for both halves of the uniparty (as peebs says) equally. That’s what really burns your gristle, Donna and Curt (and we all know it) - that I refuse to buy into the stupid notion that one corrupt color is any better than the other corrupt color or that either one has any interest at all in anything other than holding on to their power so they can line their pockets with cash. Getting back to the other points I made so well not a one of you even bothered trying to refute them... it's absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that the guy who was RUNNING FOURTH and won ZERO PRIMARIES was the only D who could have won in 2020. Biden was not even in the race until Obama, Clyburn and the corrupt D party pulled his ass out of the fire. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 4:02 pm Hunter - I already answered your questions and contrary to what you, Donna and Curt claim - I DID name a candidate - Bernie Sanders OR anybody else. Take your pick. If the party got behind anyone else like they did for Biden - that person would be president right now. Except for... "Hillary is evidence to the contrary. And if she couldn't beat Trump, most other Dems wouldn't have been able to, either." LOL! You can ask the other board members - I said in 2006 that Hillary was never going to get elected. It's only dyed in the wool party hacks who think she was a "great candidate". Every one who actually knows anything about politics knows she was a HORRIBLE choice. In 2015, (and again - these people can verify it if they're being honest) I said the ONLY way the Democrats could lose in 2016 was to nominate Hillary. And the reasoning is quite simple - see if you can figure it out on your own. If not - I'll tell you. by Donna on June 21, 2023 4:07 pm Anyone who thinks they know who would have won an election is full of shit. by Donna on June 21, 2023 4:13 pm "Wait... I really shouldn't judge you. Maybe you were always this far right." - Indy olde dude regularly calls me a Marxist. LOL!! by Curt_Anderson on June 21, 2023 4:21 pm "it's absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that the guy who was RUNNING FOURTH and won ZERO PRIMARIES was the only D who could have won in 2020." --Indy Had they stopped the nomination after the first four primaries, you might have a point. Candidates put their time, money and effort where it will do the most good. Candidates cede states where the competition is strong in primaries and presidential elections. They focus on where they can rack up points. Biden said early on the South Carolina was his firewall. A caucus like Iowa with its limited turnout of white voters is friendly to candidates like Bernie. Neighboring New Hampshire is good for Warren and Sanders. Nevada was another caucus state. Because of the time commitment to participate in a caucus, they are not very reflective of registered Democratic voters. Not everybody wants to debate their vote with neighbors. apnews.com by Indy! on June 21, 2023 4:37 pm Hunter's original statement: "Back in 2019, it was a question whether any Democrat could beat Trump." Hunter's original question as reimagined by Donna: "Anyone who thinks they know who would have won an election is full of shit." Almost the same. Definitely begs the question... If someone were to predict Hillary would not win in 2016 - isn't that the same as knowing Trump would win? Hmmm... Maybe the argument IS "rational", but your interpretation of the argument is not? 🤔 by Indy! on June 21, 2023 4:45 pm Curt, I know you buy every D fairy tale out there - no need to repeat it unless you're going to include the part about all the other candidates mysteriously dropping out at the same time even though they were doing far better than Biden and might have won South Carolina despite Biden's insistence it was his "firewall" - a term and strategy that has failed virtually every time any candidate has tried it*. But why are we regurgitating the past here? Are you folks that afraid Indy is right as always and Biden is going to get stomped in 2024 as I've said? Silly me... do I even need to ask? 🙂 *Does not apply to candidates in rigged elections. by Donna on June 21, 2023 4:50 pm I wasn't trying to "reimagine" what Hunter 28 said. It was a general statement directed at anyone who claims to know what would have been the outcome of an election if a certain politician they named had been a candidate. by Indy! on June 21, 2023 5:55 pm I notice you didn't answer my question. by Curt_Anderson on June 21, 2023 6:12 pm Indy, Why do you think it's a mystery that other candidates dropped out after Biden won South Carolina? His win in SC was followed just three days later by Super Tuesday in which Biden won ten out of 14 state contests. At that point nobody could catch up. He also racked up the endorsements from his erstwhile rivals. I know you are familiar with my Oracle of Ashland prognosticating powers. I predicted that Biden would win the presidency in April of 2020, see link. I foresee another Joe Biden presidential election victory. selectsmart.com by Indy! on June 21, 2023 6:29 pm A prediction must take place BEFORE something happens, Curt. And the candidates didn't "drop out" so much as they were "bought out" by the Ds. by Curt_Anderson on June 21, 2023 6:38 pm Indy, ???!! April 15, 2020 was several months before the election. That's the date of my prediction. by Ponderer on June 21, 2023 7:03 pm Oh it was so obvious what happened after SC. All the other candidates saw the writing on the wall in bright neon after that. The way that whole state went apeshit over Biden was the first big indication to voters nation wide that he had what it took to go all the way. And coming on the heels of Bernie wiping Biden's ass in Nevada and everyone freaked the hell out about the dawning reality that he just might win this thing, everyone was ready to jump on the safest looking alternative to that commie socialist, Bernie. There was nothing untoward about how it went down. The DNC simply went with their best alternative to win against Trump. Plus, it was Biden's Turn... by Indy! on June 21, 2023 7:50 pm The election was settled by April, Curt. Sorry - doesn't count. The fix was in, covid was in full bloom, Bernie was already negotiating his buy-out, Pete and the others already cashed their checks... Your... ahem... "prediction" might be impressive to the Blue MAGA faithful who buy into all the fairy tales - but not us seasoned prognasticators who are predicting wins and losses years ahead of time. 😌 by Curt_Anderson on June 21, 2023 9:39 pm "2. LOL! Biden had nothing to do with it. Everybody knows what "got them over the finish line" - it was Biden's LIE that he was going to give everybody $2000... which immediately became $1400 the minute the election was over." --Indy Indy, you are confused about dates. Biden did not make that as a campaign promise. Read when the promise was made. It was after the election in December. But guess what? We did get $2000...in two separate checks of $600 and $1400. Biden's announcement of the $1,400 stimulus checks may leave some wondering, what happened to the $2,000 payment you were promoting back in December? Despite support from Biden, Democrats, President Donald Trump and some Republicans for $2,000 payments, legislators were only able to pass a relief package in December that included just $600 payments. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell shot down a Democrat-led attempt in the House to pass a separate bill increasing the payments to $2,000, prompting the Treasury Department to start sending out the $600 payments. Now that there's a new Congress, legislators can't simply pass a bill to increase the $600 payments, they must pass entirely new legislation. A bill for a third round of payments worth $1,400 would bring the total to $2,000 when factoring in the payments that went out in December. newsweek.com by Hunter28 on June 25, 2023 1:04 pm Indy! wrote: 1. ANYBODY. Absolutely ANY D could have defeated Trump because everybody was sick of the Orange Man. Pete, Kamala, Amy... maybe even HILLARY! Bernie's numbers vs. Trump were FAR higher than Biden's. ANY... BODY… (with a pulse). Let’s first start with your claim that Bernie’s numbers against Trump were “FAR higher” than Biden’s. Incorrect. I welcome you to visit the RealClearPolitics pages below, where you’ll see Biden’s head-to-polling against Trump was usually much better than Sanders’ numbers against Trump. Many people who follow politics a lot closer than you do disagree with your premise. Jim Clyburn, for example. He backed Biden because he believed Biden was the strongest candidate to beat Trump. Stronger than Pete Buttigieg. Stronger than Kamala Harris, Amy Klobuchar, or anybody else with a pulse. Clyburn and other party leaders were fearful that Bernie Sanders wouldn’t be able to gather enough support to defeat Trump. Given the close margins in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia, Clyburn was probably right. The last two times Democrats nominated a presidential candidate from the far left of the party, they lost 49 states. I am very skeptical that Bernie could have bucked the trend and attracted the support of enough moderate voters to beat Trump. 2. LOL! Biden had nothing to do with it. Everybody knows what "got them over the finish line" - it was Biden's LIE that he was going to give everybody $2000... which immediately became $1400 the minute the election was over. So you’re upset because Biden only delivered 70 percent of the cash he promised you? This is a perfect metaphor for how irrational and petty many progressives are. You got most of what you wanted, but you’re calling Biden a failure because you didn’t give you everything. We live in a democratic system. Compromise is inevitable. You clearly have trouble recognizing when your side won. I guess that’s why you are so dismissive of Biden’s accomplishments. Then there is Roe - the biggest step back for progressive ideology in the history of the country. That happened on Biden’s watch and a big part of the reason is because he was on duty with Obama and let McConnell take the Supreme Court pick with absolutely no repercussions. Sorry. The reason the Republicans have a majority on the Supreme Court is because people on the left decided to throw away their votes on Ralph Nader in 2000 and Jill Stein in 2016. Had Gore won election in 2000 and reelection in 2004, he would have appointed at least one justice when Rhenquist died, and possibly another if Sandra Day O’Connor retired at that time. If Hillary had won in 2000, she would have nominated replacements for Scalia and Ginsburg, flipping one seat and nominating a liberal to replace RBG. Even if we assume that O’Connor and Kennedy stayed on the Supreme Court (or were replaced by an intervening Republican administration), we would probably have a 6-3 liberal majority and Roe would still be the law of the land. There are consequences for wasting your vote on a fringe presidential candidate. If you want liberal justices, you have to vote for Democratic presidential and senate candidates. realclearpolitics.com realclearpolitics.com by Hunter28 on June 25, 2023 1:07 pm CORRECTION: "If Hillary had won in 2016..." by Indy! on June 25, 2023 9:29 pm Hunter 28 (which must be this person's age) 1. You have no idea how close I follow politics, but judging from your comically obtuse posts - it's definitely far more than you do. Clyburn is a hack - the fact you cite him as some sort of authority is just another clue you are nothing more than Blue MAGA - buying whatever the Democrats sell and paying FAR more than it's worth. 2. You're NOT upset you got promised 42.8% more and Biden screwed you out of it FOR NO REASON AT ALL? Just to have a laugh over the poor folks plight with his rich oligarch buddies? Got news for you Hunter - you know absolutely nothing about me. I didn't need that money, nor did I "want" it, push for it or get upset when it was cut short. Your problem is you're a black and white linear thinker - which is exactly what the Ds want in their party. You're happy when they treat you like dirt. 3. Good lord. We're playing coulda, shoulda, woulda? If magical fairies took pity on the Ds horrible mismanagement of the country maybe we wouldn't have ANY Republicans in office and you know what? We'd still be right where we are because this is what the Ds wanted. Now - how about a little reality? Obama gave away his Supreme Clown pick. That's one justice down thanks to the Ds. RGB could have stepped aside during Obama's term. She was dying, but her ego wouldn't let her step down and she helped destroy everything she had worked for as a justice by staying a couple years too long. That's TWO justices lost thanks to the Ds. In 2016, Hillary could have either run a fair race against Bernie, visited some of the states she thought were in the bag, NOT nominated an anti-choice veep, NOT bought out the DNC so they would shade the race for her, NOT picked Trump to run against in her hare-brained Pied Piper scheme, NOT shouted at the top of her lungs on national TV "UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE WILL NEVER PASS!" with such glee or run on a platform that was actually a little progressive and she MIGHT have won. Then Trump would not have had the other 2 picks after RBG. That's FOUR justices lost thanks to the Ds. And that's sticking to reality. Now - you want to talk about Gore? He wouldn't allow Clinton to campaign for him - not even Clinton's home state of Arkansas. And Gore didn't bother campaigning in HIS home state either. Win either one of those states and Gore is president. Gore was Hillary before Hillary - ran a rightwing race trying to fish votes from the NASCAR pond instead of just offering up a couple progressive policies to get the people on the sidelines interested. Nominated a rightwing veep like Hillary, passed on states he thought were in the bag, listened to Lieberman when it came to the Florida recount instead of someone who actually KNOWS Florida and where to find those missing votes. Nader is the TV fall guy for fools like you who know NOTHING about politics, Hunter. That's the OTHER reality you don't know and never will. Here's your Blue MAGAt authority... by Hunter28 on June 25, 2023 11:49 pm Indy! wrote: You have no idea how close I follow politics, but judging from your comically obtuse posts - it's definitely far more than you do. Just because you follow politics doesn’t mean you understand it. We do not live in a dictatorship. We live in a democratic republic, where elections are won and legislation is passed by assembling coalitions and compromising with political opponents. Biden has accomplished an awful lot for someone who was dealt a pretty lousy hand. You said your political superhero is Bernie Sanders. He’s the guy you think could have defeated Trump and gotten more accomplished than President Biden. You said that Bernie matched up better than Biden in head-to-head polls against Trump. That was incorrect, and I provided the evidence. You mentioned that any Democrat could have defeated Trump. That was obviously not the case for Hillary. The reason Jim Clyburn backed Biden is because he felt Biden had the best chance of beating Trump in the general election. Clyburn has a lot more experience than you in politics, so I trust his judgment more than yours. He clearly observed strengths and skills in Biden that you overlooked. Moreover, American voters don’t have a history of supporting left-wing Democrats for president. McGovern lost 49 states in 1972 and Mondale lost 49 states in 1984. It’s doubtful that Bernie, the most liberal member of the U.S. Senate, could have assembled a winning coalition in the presidential election. Biden, always seen as a moderate, could deflect accusations of socialism by pointing at his track record. Sanders was a socialist. It’s doubtful Bernie would have been able to attract the white middle-class suburban voters who were key to winning most of the swing states. As Curt Anderson pointed out, Sanders is from a state that had a Republican governor, who would have likely appointed a Republican as his replacement. Sanders would not have been able to secure a Democratic majority in the Senate – even if Warnock and Osoff had won – so there is very little legislation he could have passed. Biden did not campaign on a progressive agenda, but he moved in that direction after he was elected. Although he had a 50-50 Senate and a slim House majority, he helped pass important legislation that advanced Democratic and progressive priorities. I have trouble imagining any Democrat who could have achieved more under the circumstances. You have not provided any credible argument that Bernie or anyone else could have done better. You're NOT upset you got promised 42.8% more and Biden screwed you out of it FOR NO REASON AT ALL? What an odd and irrational thing to say. First, as Curt Anderson pointed out, the $1,400 Biden delivered after the inauguration was in addition to an earlier payment of $600. Even if you want to argue that he should have provided a full additional $2,000, Biden didn't screw me or anyone else out of the money. It's a Democratic system, and he did the best he could under the circumstances. Moreover, Biden provided a child tax credit of $3,000 to $3,600 to most working families. Even if you want to quibble about whether Biden delivered $1,400 or the full $2,000, his administration found other ways to support struggling families. by Indy! on June 26, 2023 9:58 am You said your political superhero is Bernie Sanders. He’s the guy you think could have defeated Trump and gotten more accomplished than President Biden. You're just outright lying now. I never said any such thing. I preferred Sanders over Biden - yes. Every PROGRESSIVE on the planet did - he was popular in other countries as well as the USA. He provided hope for ending the insanity of the corruption going on in this country and the world. He was not my "hero" - only tools like yourself consider politicians "heroes". They're CRIMINALS. I'm done rehashing the 2020 D election theft. All the information is out there - learn something. I'm tired of educating you. What an odd and irrational thing to say. First, as Curt Anderson pointed out, the $1,400 Biden delivered after the inauguration was in addition to an earlier payment of $600. I blew this stupid D talking point out of the water in two separate threads already. Below you will find the link to an article explaining why both you and Curt are wrong including a graphic of the pertinent points highlighted for Curt's convenience and now yours. Go down to the end and you'll see even ELECTED DEMOCRATS were saying "$1400 is not $2000!" 🙄 en.as.com Go To Top

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