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Manchin says he will not vote for Build Back Better: 'This is a no'

By HatetheSwamp
December 19, 2021 9:00 am
Category: Government

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Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) announced on "Fox News Sunday" that he will not vote for President Biden’s “mammoth” climate and social spending bill, essentially killing the White House's top legislative priority.

"I cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation, I just can't. I tried everything humanly possible, I can't get there" he told guest host Bret Baier...

Manchin said Biden knew that he had serious concerns about how the 2,000-plus page bill was shaping up.

“He knows that I’ve had concerns and the problems I’ve had,” he said. “The thing we should all be directing our attention towards is the variant of COVID we have coming back at us in so many different aspects and different ways. It’s affecting our lives again.”

Manchin also warned that rising inflation could “really harm a lot of Americans,” especially lower-income or impoverished Americans.

[ARROGANT] Senate Budget Committee Chairman Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who on Friday told The Hill that he thought Manchin could be convinced to support the legislation, on Sunday said he wants to force his colleague to vote against it.

“We've been dealing with Mr. Manchin for month after month after month. But if he doesn't have the courage to do the right thing for the working families of West Virginia and America, let him vote no in front of the whole world,” he told CNN’s Jake Tapper on “State of the Union.”

What Manchin has done is to challenge the flatulent fool to be true to the promise that was at the core of his campaign, i.e., to serve all the people, even the people who voted against him.

West Virginia went for Trump by ton and representing his state, even as a loyal Dem, Manchin is right to reject BBB.

It's up to you, you "feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap."


Cited and related links:

  1. thehill.com

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Comments on "Manchin says he will not vote for Build Back Better: 'This is a no'":

  1. by Donna on December 19, 2021 9:20 am
    Bernie and some others were optimistic, but I never was. I guess they had to show optimism.

    West Virginians would have been helped immensely by the bill. The voters there are demonstrating why they remain one of the poorest states in the country. If their sado-madochistic voting choices only affected them, then I wouldn't care, but they're dashing the hopes of tens of millions of working Americans by electing corrupt, self-serving assholes like Joe Yacht Club Manchin.


  2. by Curt_Anderson on December 19, 2021 10:22 am
    I always thought BBB should have been divided into bite size pieces. For example free community college could be a stand alone.


  3. by HatetheSwamp on December 19, 2021 10:31 am

    Yeah, you keep saying that West Virginians would benefit from BBB. I think that I understand the mindset.

    My mom's family came from the Appalachian part of Pennsylvania, essentially West Virginia extended.

    There's a question how much getting freebies from Big Bro costs.

    These people are very much like the people who fought England on the principles of the Declaration of INDEPENDENCE.

    They hate big, intrusive government. They hate Big Brother.

    I've mentioned that I saw Bret Baier interview Manchin a few months ago. Baier asked Manchin if he'd switch parties. Manchin said, "Bret, I'm a West Virginia Democrat."

    When I heard that, I doubted that BBB, in a form that progressives would want would pass...though I thought he'd hold out for a scaled down version that was very WV friendly.

    Manchin has a sense of history that makes him impervious to the sort of pressure he'd get from a weakling like the flatulent fool.


  4. by HatetheSwamp on December 19, 2021 10:57 am

    Curt,

    I agree.

    If the flatulent fool had The ONE's majorities, maybe. But, this whole thing? Nah.


  5. by Donna on December 19, 2021 11:01 am
    I'm going with most West Virginians are dumb hillbillies who have their heads up their asses.

    In the late 60s, my very conservative dad, who worked for the B&O railroad, went on a lot of business trips to Huntington WV, and for a while there was a possibilty that we'd have to move there. Dad was terrified at the prospect. He hated everything about WV. I think it would have driven him to quit.


  6. by Donna on December 19, 2021 11:15 am
    I don't think it would have fared any better if they had done that, Curt.


  7. by Curt_Anderson on December 19, 2021 11:17 am
    "They hate big, intrusive government. They hate Big Brother." -HtS

    If West Virginians hate "Big Brother", it wasn't always the case.


    [N]early 100 years ago. In 1935, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Rural Electrification Act into law as part of the New Deal. When this law created the Rural Electrification Administration, less than 10% of West Virginia had electricity, lagging far behind the rest of the country. This piece of legislation literally turned the lights on in West Virginia and helped bring us into the modern age. ---Sen. Joe Manchin

    manchin.senate.gov


  8. by HatetheSwamp on December 19, 2021 12:15 pm

    Things have changed since Truman was President, there, Curt.


  9. by Curt_Anderson on December 19, 2021 12:25 pm
    HtS,
    That editorial I quoted was from was an editorial that Joe Manchin wrote last year. It was about WV getting millions of federal dollars to improve and increase their internet access and their needing and wanting more federal money.

    Manchin likened being connected to the internet today to being connected to electric power in the nineteen-thirties.



  10. by HatetheSwamp on December 19, 2021 1:44 pm

    It was about WV getting millions of federal dollars to improve and increase their internet access and their needing and wanting more federal money.

    I'll assume that your take is accurate.

    What do you suppose it indicates about BBB that Manchin wrote that and now can't abide this legislation.


  11. by Curt_Anderson on December 19, 2021 2:50 pm
    It's accurate. Manchin writes about that in his op-ed.

    I suspect that West Virginians have a kneejerk reaction against anything that is pro-alternative energy and threatens coal. They may also be worried about pharmaceutical legislation which might threaten their access to opioids.


  12. by HatetheSwamp on December 19, 2021 2:58 pm

    Curt,

    I suspect that woke energy..THE GREEN NEW DEAL...with its implications for coal industry employment discourages support even among Dems in WV.


  13. by Curt_Anderson on December 19, 2021 3:07 pm
    The Green New Deal is NOT in BBB.

    But what’s not in it?
    (Guardian)A Green New Deal, for starters. Progressives and climate advocates had hoped for sweeping climate reforms that did not make it into Biden’s Build Back Better bill – and that omission continues to be a fight between the far-left and centrist Democrats. The Build Back Better plan aims to reduce carbon emissions to net zero by 2050, far short of the Green New Deal’s goal of 2035.



    Here is what is in BBB.

    The largest effort to combat climate change in American history:

    (White House)Delivers substantial consumer rebates and tax credits to reduce costs for middle class families shifting to clean energy and electrification.

    Ensures clean energy technology – from wind turbine blades to solar panels to electric cars – will be built in the United States with American made steel and other materials, creating hundreds of thousands of good jobs here at home.

    Advances environmental justice through a new Clean Energy and Sustainability Accelerator that will invest in projects around the country, while delivering 40% of the benefits of investment to disadvantaged communities, as part of the President’s Justice40 initiative.

    Bolsters resilience and natural solutions to climate change through a historic investment in coastal restoration, forest management, and soil conservation.
    theguardian.com
    whitehouse.gov


  14. by HatetheSwamp on December 19, 2021 3:33 pm

    ...and that omission continues to be a fight between the far-left and centrist Democrats.

    Well, of course, WV Dems are to the right of so-called "centrist" Dems and Manchin represents the large WV GOP majority as well.

    In the WV context, I suspect woke environmental policy differences between mid left Dems and progressives still means Green New Deal to the good men and women in the hollers.


  15. by Donna on December 19, 2021 4:16 pm
    It's not about policy, it's about personality.

    While most West Virginans support the policies in BBB, 74% support Manchin's opposition to it.


  16. by HatetheSwamp on December 19, 2021 4:35 pm

    Donna,

    I think you're oversimplifying.

    What Manchin is saying, at least one thing, is that the flatulent fool was lying when he claimed how much BBB costs and, especially, that it's effin, paid for.

    Certainly, most of us would like all of this stuff for free...

    ...but, in the real world, this stuff ain't free...it will add hundreds of billions to the deficit...

    ...and that splains how people, by large margins, support, in theory, the programs, but also support opposition to BBB in the real world.


  17. by Donna on December 19, 2021 5:42 pm
    I don't buy that. And I don't buy that that's the reason Manchin torpedoed BBB. I think it has everything to do with who's bankrolling Manchin's political career - who made him a very wealthy man. Manchin personally made $400K last year from the coal industry, which is no doubt why he rejected the parts of BBB having to do with mitigating climate change.

    I don't watch Fox or OAN, and I don't frequent right wing internet sites, but I would guess that Manchin has won over most West Virginians because those media sources, I would guess, support him, frequently have him on as a guest, and write favorably about him. And I would guess that Manchin has used those media sources to divert the audience's attention away from how BBB would improve their lives, and focus their attention instead on the deficit.

    As I've noted before, Republican politicians and Republicans disguised as Democratic politicians are much more skilled in politics than Democratic politicians. Democrats make the mistake of talking too much about policy and tend to ignore psychological strategists in winning over voters.

    And they frame issues abd policy proposals horribly "Build Back Better"? Really? As much as I hate to admit it,, Make America Great Again! is an outstanding political slogan. How many "Build Back Better" hats do you see?

    If the Democratic Party were managed and coached competently, they'd be mopping the floor with the Republicans.



  18. by Curt_Anderson on December 19, 2021 6:19 pm
    "...but, in the real world, this stuff ain't free...it will add hundreds of billions to the deficit..." -HtS

    (Axios)"A group of 56 economists says President Biden’s Build Back Better Act would counteract the impact of rising prices on Americans’ wallets."

    While often "stuff ain't free" immediately, in your own life, you probably know that not spending money can cost you money. Say you have a leaky roof. You'll need to spend money to replace it. Doing nothing will mean damage to your insulation, ceiling, walls, floors, structure, etc. All that damage causes your house to lose value. Not spending money will cost you more, and the roof will still need to be replaced.

    If you aren't a homeowner, think about your car. If you don't pour a can of Quaker State into your car's engine as needed, that will cost you money.

    It's the same with the investments that a country makes in itself.

    Donna,
    Last year, Manchin made more than $491,000 from his Enersystems holdings, filings show.

    Conservatives have more chess moves than progressives. Progressives have one successful move--forward. Conservatives have two. Whether they move backwards or don't move, their side is winning.

    Build Back Better is forward looking. BBB is unsuccessful if it isn't passed. Make American Great Again is regressive. Republicans tout the legislation that DOESN'T get passed.
    axios.com
    investinamericaproject.com


  19. by Donna on December 19, 2021 7:53 pm
    Make America Great Again! is honest in its accessment of our situation yet hopeful and uplifting. And it's memorable. I've seen a lot of MAGA hats. I haven't seen any BBB hats. Because it's uninspiring.


  20. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 3:21 am

    Donna,

    As far as your suggestion that coal is a crucial issue in Manchin's decision, I don't know what you think we disagree about. I've said that "woke" energy policy packed into BBB is a core issue...

    ...but if you think that the impact that BBB would have on the deficit is not a factor also, I think you're deranged.

    BBB is an economic monstrosity. "That feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" knew that from the beginning. That's why his smoke filled room handlers had him spew the lie that it's paid for. When that was proved to be a lie, Manchin had all he needed.

    Obviously, the former 18 wheeler driver and his bureaucrats tried to negotiate a version of BBB that was something less than an economic catastrophe...but couldn't.


  21. by islander on December 20, 2021 8:54 am

    ”...but if you think that the impact that BBB would have on the deficit is not a factor also, I think you're deranged.” ---Hate

    That’s too vague to have any real meaning. Will the impact be little, immense, good, or bad?

    

The thing Republicans do, and they have always been able to do, and they do it well, is to sell a large portion of people on the idea that those things that will be benefit the country as a whole and are what most of us want...are “free stuff”...meaning those who wants such things want them without paying for them, and they tell us that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

    

The part about there being no such thing as a free lunch is true, but what they are saying of course is false. We all know that it’s not the government or “Big Brother” who is giving us free stuff. What we want is for our money, in the form of the taxes we pay, to be spent in a certain way and on things that will actually benefit ‘us’. We call things like public education ‘free', if our house catches fire we can call the fire dept. and they will come and put out the fire and not charge us. We have roads and highways that the government builds for us and we drive drive on them for ‘free’ vs toll roads. Naturally we know that although we call these things free, they were built and paid for by us. BBB is not about us wanting to get free stuff from Big Brother. It’s about using our tax dollars in ways that benefit us. The Republicans are successful at hoodwinking people into voting against their own best interest by selling them on the idea of 'Big Brother' and 'Free Stuff'.


  22. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 10:26 am

    I actually agree, isle. The OMB says that BBB will add a significant portion of $1,000,000,000,000 to the deficit. That's very costly.


  23. by Curt_Anderson on December 20, 2021 10:35 am
    HtS,
    I don't believe the OMB gave Build Back Better that score or any other score. Do you have a link to what you're claiming?


  24. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 11:07 am

    Good point. I stand corrected. I misabreviated.

    I meant CBO, not OMB.

    Either way, it's been well documented.


  25. by Curt_Anderson on December 20, 2021 11:27 am
    HtS,
    Ok. An understandable confusion.

    Here are the actual CBO scores. This fact check article debunks Lindsey Graham's statement about the CBO score. It also compares BBB projected deficits to the Trump tax cut's deficits.

    Graham is incorrect. The bill passed by the House and now in the Senate’s hands costs about $1.75 trillion, and, according to CBO figures, would add $158 billion to the deficit over 10 years, not $3 trillion. (President Joe Biden and other Democrats say even that smaller deficit would evaporate thanks to IRS crackdowns on tax evaders.)

    Graham is saying the deficit would be 20 times larger than the bill at hand. That’s like the difference between a grape and a big cantaloupe.

    In 2017, the CBO told Congress that the Tax Cut and Jobs Act would add a bit over $1.45 trillion to the deficit. That was the estimate before the vote to pass the bill. In reality, the law has ended up adding nearly $2 trillion to the deficit.


    Btw, more than 60% of the 2017 GOP tax cut's tax savings went to people in the top 20% of the income ladder, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. The measure also slashed the corporate tax rate by 40%.

    I don't recall you complaining about that deficit.
    statesman.com
    npr.org


  26. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 11:49 am

    Curt,

    Interestingly, I just watched yesterday's Fox News Sunday program a day after the fact. I watched Manchin make his announcement. You should have seen the surprised expression on Bret Baier's face when he realized the story he Manchin was breaking on Baier's show!

    What Manchin said in the whole interview is that, in all of his conversations with the former 18 wheeler driver, all the flatulent fool's gang ever did was roll out budget gimmicks to make it appear that BBB wasn't going to increase the deficit, that his concerns were never substantially addressed.


  27. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 11:57 am

    Oh, and, I did enjoy the,

    Trump Trump Trump Trump, Trump Trump Trump Trump, Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump, Trump!, chorus.

    You haven't sung that's in a while.

    But, really? Justifying the flatulent fool by putting him in the same category as Trump!!!!!?


  28. by Curt_Anderson on December 20, 2021 12:05 pm
    HtS,
    I am merely pointing out Republicans' (including your) hypocrisy about deficits.

    "It’s almost like clockwork. As soon as a Democrat enters the White House, Republicans pretend to care about deficits again."

    Do you remember what I said above about repairing your roof?

    "[The] time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining, as budget-watchers and economists repeatedly reminded developed countries in the years between the last recession and the current one."
    washingtonpost.com


  29. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 12:16 pm

    Splain to me how it's MY hypocrisy.


  30. by Curt_Anderson on December 20, 2021 1:18 pm
    "Splain to me how it's MY hypocrisy." -HtS

    Now that a Democrat is president, you are suddenly posting your concerns about "free stuff" and the deficit. That's the GOP modus operandi.

    With BBB you and others of your age and economic station could enjoy benefits like care for the elderly and support for the caregivers. You might benefit from reduced prescription drug costs by allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices.

    There are benefits including free community college which all of society benefits.

    I am guessing that you didn't have an appreciable benefit from the Trump tax cuts,


  31. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 1:30 pm

    I didn't get much benefit from the tax cut. I always thought that it will disastrously add to the deficit.

    I'm intrigued with the idea that you and other Blue MAGA progressives have that one should benefit financially from your vote.

    I don't think that's what the Founders fought and died for.


  32. by Curt_Anderson on December 20, 2021 2:19 pm
    "I'm intrigued with the idea that you and other Blue MAGA progressives have that one should benefit financially from your vote." --HtS

    You are projecting. It's Republicans who tout tax cuts which benefits some but not all of society with a disproportionate of the benefit going to the wealthy. It's usually sold by telling the gullible rubes that they will benefit from "trickle down". Have you noticed any corporations dropping their prices to consumers since the Trump corporate tax cuts on 2017?

    It's not a personal financial benefit that I necessarily expect from good policy legislation.

    My vote goes to candidates who I believe through their legislative votes will benefit me, my community and/or the public at large--as opposed to benefitting a small (usually rich) segment of society.

    I often vote for ballot propositions that don't necessarily benefit me financially or otherwise, such as school and public transportation funding. Although, I generally believe that helping my neighbors helps us all.


  33. by HatetheSwamp on December 20, 2021 3:01 pm

    C'mon man, gimme a break!

    You chided me for not supporting BBB because of all I could get out of it because I'm a geezer.


  34. by islander on December 20, 2021 3:40 pm

    ”I actually agree, isle”

    You do ??? You had me fooled. You really agree that the Republicans have been and are successful at hoodwinking an awful lot people into voting against their own best interest by selling them on the false concept of Big Brother handing out free stuff to the undeserving ?? 

And by voting against our government spending the money we send them on things that will actually be beneficial to all of us, we will be demonstrating that we are rugged, self reliant individuals, who don’t need or accept handouts? At least this is what you seem to be implying as the reason why so many folks in Appalachia staunchly vote against their own best interest.


  35. by Donna on December 20, 2021 5:36 pm
    Price tag for 2 decades of war: $5.8 TRILLION.

    Just sayin'.

    Funny that all the things that are supposedly too expensive for the US to do like affordable college, affordable and universal health care, paid family leave, and free child care get done by every developed country on the planet except America. I liked it better when we were the envy of the world. Now they just shake their heads and thank God they don't live in America.

    cbsnews.com


  36. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2021 3:47 am

    No, isle, I don't agree with hate speech, ever. Nor, GOPaphobia.


  37. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2021 3:53 am

    What logic, there, Donna. So, you'll retroactively support the war if Manchin votes for BBB?

    The fact remains that the flatulent fool was in front of the story saying, repeatedly, that BBB is paid for, apparently thinking that no one would check.

    It ain't. And, apparently, by a looooooooooong shot.


  38. by islander on December 21, 2021 5:39 am

    "No, isle, I don't agree with hate speech, ever. Nor, GOPaphobia. ---Hate

    I never said anything about hate speech or asked you if you agreed with hate speech.

    Apparently, when you said you agreed with me...you didn't.


  39. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2021 5:50 am

    "What we want is for our money, in the form of the taxes we pay, to be spent in a certain way and on things that will actually benefit ‘us’. We call things like public education ‘free', if our house catches fire we can call the fire dept. and they will come and put out the fire and not charge us. We have roads and highways that the government builds for us and we drive drive on them for ‘free’ vs toll roads. Naturally we know that although we call these things free, they were built and paid for by us." -isle

    I agree.


  40. by islander on December 21, 2021 7:46 am

    Hate,

    So now you agree with me again ? I don’t really think you do. If you do then why are you against BBB which “will” spend money on the things that we need and "will" be beneficial to all of us and our country? 



    If you’d prefer that our government NOT spend money on those things, what on earth do you want the government to spend money on instead ? Tax cuts for the wealthy? weapons? subsidies for industries that extract and sell fuel that threatens our environment?


  41. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2021 8:13 am

    Your definition, isle, of "need" and mine, and Manchin’s, are at odds.

    I've never been enthusiastic about tax cuts...in fact, I believe taxes should be increased, equitably.

    I have always thought of BBB as a monstrosity filled with a ton of porkish idiocy. And, even the flatulent fool has stopped lying about it being paid for.

    After the holidays the atmosphere in DC will change. What the pols vote for, and against, will become an election issue...for Dems and GOPs both.

    I think that some of BBB has value. From now on, the genuine popularity of its provisions...among people who effin vote...will be political life and death.

    I'm predicting here and now that BBB will be broken up into pieces and some of it will become law. Some GOPs will vote for parts of it, as they did for the bipartisan bill.

    But, if revenue ain't generated to pay for it, there will be he'll to pay.


  42. by islander on December 21, 2021 8:46 am

    Hate,

    So now you agree with me again ? I don’t really think you do. If you do then why are you against BBB which “will” spend our money on the things that we need and will be beneficial to all of us and our country? 

If you’d prefer for our government NOT to spend money on those things that we need and are beneficial to all of us and our country, what on earth do you want the government to spend money on instead ?

    I have no doubt that your values and mine are different, and that what you think people need and what I think people need are undoubtedly different as well. I’m just curious, what’s in the bill that you don’t want the government to spend money on because in your opinion, it’s not something people really need ?

    You say, “But, if revenue ain't generated to pay for it, there will be he'll to pay”...

We’ll never have enough money from taxes or anywhere else to pay for everything the government provides. So the government “borrows” so to speak, the money it needs and that becomes a part of our National Debt which of course we’ll never pay back and in fact will never have to pay back. So calling it a debt is actually a misnomer. What do you think happens to the money the government “borrows”? That borrowed money is “spent” and it’s how we get the money needed to keep our economy running “into circulation”.
 And as our population and economy keep growing we "NEED" to introduce more money to use in all of our transactions.


  43. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2021 8:52 am

    "We’ll never have enough money from taxes or anywhere else to pay for everything the government provides."

    Then the government NEEDS to provide less.


  44. by islander on December 21, 2021 8:57 am
    "Then the government NEEDS to provide less"

    Can you explain to me why you believe we have to "pay back" this thing we call the national debt?


  45. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2021 9:21 am

    I know that you are old. Do you remember the days when Germans were taking wheel barrows filled with cash to the store to buy bread?

    When the government pumps resources into the economy, inflation results.

    When I was a kid, my dad had a decent job working as civilian employee of the federal government. He made about $7,000 a year. Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

    I grew up in a nice, but modest, home. Dad paid $15,000ish to have it built. The days of wheel barrows are on the way.


  46. by islander on December 21, 2021 9:33 am

    So you think the government should not spend more than it takes in, is that correct?


  47. by Donna on December 21, 2021 3:54 pm
    Btw, Manchin's torpedoing of BBB is exactly what House Progressives warned the DNC about, and why they strongly advised passing the infrastructure reconciliation bill and the BBB together.

    AOC explains below.


    rsn.org


  48. by Curt_Anderson on December 21, 2021 4:24 pm
    Donna,
    AOC is wrong. Neither the infrastructure bill nor BBB would have been passed had they been inextricably tied together.

    I believe it was you who provided evidence that polls showed the voters liked the individual elements of BBB although they had reservations about the entire bill. That's probably because BBB is largely undefined in people's minds.

    People understand and like the idea of Free Community College and the other parts. If the parts are more popular than the whole it only makes sense to pass the parts in individual legislation.

    The New Deal was a series of about dozen bills which Roosevelt signed. FDR didn't try to pass the entire New Deal package in one bill, and the Democrats outnumbered Republicans by two to one in Congress.

    As it stands the infrastructure bill passed, so Biden has achieved about 50% of his goal. If Biden can get parts of BBB passed that will be even more of his goal achieved. That's success in Washington DC, especially with an evenly divided Congress.



  49. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2021 7:19 pm

    Good points, Curt.

    The Dems could have political leverage with the popular parts of what used to be BBB.

    It was a done deal that the GOPs would unite in opposition to BBB. Individual parts will probably get some GOP support. And, GOPs will be arguing among themselves if that happens.

    The big Dem problem is that the flatulent fool is a dimwit.


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