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Military selectors, pages, etc.
Israel’s military says six hostages ‘brutally murdered’ in Gaza, including Israeli-American Goldberg-Polin
By HatetheSwamp
September 1, 2024 4:42 am
Category: Military

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Those Filthy Pig Jews are at fault, eh, Donna, po, Indy!!!!!?


"Israeli soldiers found the six bodies in tunnels under the enclave, according to the military. The hostages were “brutally murdered by Hamas terrorists, a short while before we reached them,” Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said in a briefing.

"Three months ago, on May 27, Israel agreed to a hostage release deal with the full backing of the United States. Hamas refused. Even after the United States updated the outline of the deal on August 16 – we agreed, and Hamas again refused.”

Goldberg-Polin and friends hid inside a small bomb shelter when Hamas gunmen launched their murderous attack on Israel’s southern border. As militants began to throw grenades into the bunker, Goldberg-Polin rushed to throw them out, before his arm was blown off from the elbow down, according to a firsthand account from his friend."


Cited and related links:

  1. cnn.com

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Comments on "Israel’s military says six hostages ‘brutally murdered’ in Gaza, including Israeli-American Goldberg-Polin":

  1. by oldedude on September 1, 2024 7:09 am
    Like you said. somehow, Hamas will be absolved of all wrongdoing in this, and the Israelis will be blamed. I saw the headline but didn't read the story. Were the wounds pre- or postmortem? I'd also be looking for old wounds and bone breaks that are starting to heal.

    Again, they're dealing with terrorists. And people want us to negotiate with them.


    Curt- Question. Do you put parents at the school board meetings in the same category as those that murdered these six and thousands more? These are the actual "terrorists." Is someone that want the best for their children the same as those demanding global domination and support genocide?

    I'd really like an answer to that because you seem to think the parents (and Tulsi) "deserve" to be on the terrorist watch list. I think there are people on this site that are more apt to fit the terrorist criteria than those folks. I'd like to get your reasons.


  2. by Curt_Anderson on September 1, 2024 8:45 am
    HtS,
    For a person who claims to be on the TSA terrorist watch list, Tulsi Gabbard sure does a lot of flying. You know what I told OD about grandstanding politicians bamboozling the MAGA cultists. Are you SURE she is on terrorist watch list? She didn’t mention having to drive to La Crosse last week.

    For the record I don’t consider some blowhard who makes idle threats the same as Hamas members.


  3. by HatetheSwamp on September 1, 2024 8:50 am

    Why are you asking pb?


  4. by meagain on September 1, 2024 8:53 am
    If the IDF were not busily murdering thousands of innocents in Gaza, this could have been ended months ago and the hostages returned alive. While the six newly murdered is another monstrosity, it pales beside the many thousands of women and children in Gaza murdered by the IDF.


  5. by HatetheSwamp on September 1, 2024 9:35 am

    So, meagain. You're a woke, progressive antisemite, too. Those evil Jews. Merely existing so as to force Hamas to rape and murder women and behead babies, eh? Those evil pig Jews should be holocausted! Right off the face of the earth.


  6. by Curt_Anderson on September 1, 2024 10:00 am
    Meagain,
    There is no moral equivalent, much less does Hamas’s murderous actions pale in comparison to the IDF’s rescue attempts and targeting Hamas. Hamas has little respect for human life even of their own citizens. America and Canada probably killed more Germans (including civilians) than they killed us in WWII. That doesn’t make Nazis our moral superiors.

    I asked Donna this question but never got an answer. Maybe you can answer:
    If members of your family were murdered and some were kidnapped. After negotiation efforts were unsuccessful, when would you want law enforcement to respond with lethal force to secure the release of your family/hostages?
    1. Two days
    2. Two weeks
    3. Two months

    Bonus question: what sort of reward would you give the kidnappers as ransom?


  7. by Indy! on September 1, 2024 11:18 am

    OD: I'd really like an answer to that because you seem to think the parents (and Tulsi) "deserve" to be on the terrorist watch list. I think there are people on this site that are more apt to fit the terrorist criteria than those folks.


    Are we about to experience a moment of self-realization from OD? 🤔


  8. by meagain on September 1, 2024 2:23 pm
    " Those evil Jews."

    When you understand the difference between Jews and Israelis, try me again.


  9. by meagain on September 1, 2024 2:34 pm
    The question is not about moral equivalence. It is a terrorist action compared to genocide.

    Your question is asking for an emotional response to a personal tragedy and needs no practical answer. A sovereign nation should not go to war against another unless attacked by that other. Military action is not law enforcement. If Israel would do as the world outside the USA has been demanding for decades and get out of Palestine, then Palestine would be able to enforce its laws and deal with domestic terrorists. The UN general body has a majority recognition of a Palestinian state but the US vetoes any Security Council motion on that.


  10. by Curt_Anderson on September 1, 2024 3:14 pm
    "A sovereign nation should not go to war against another unless attacked by that other." ---Meagain

    The following doesn't count as an attack in your book?



    What nation with any wherewithal would tolerate that and not respond with whatever force they could muster? What nation would permit a neighbor to hold 100 or more of it's citizens hostage for nearly 11 months?

    It has been said that Gazans are victims of Hamas too. Certainly some are. Some are actively part of or supporters of Hamas. Some are collaborators. Some turn a blind eye to Hamas's terroristic activities. Whatever the situation, there certainly doesn't seem to be any effort by Gazans to rid themselves of Hamas, the terrorist/political party they voted in.


  11. by HatetheSwamp on September 1, 2024 3:34 pm

    The abject sorrow:

    "This morning in Jerusalem it felt like an invisible blanket had settled on the streets. It’s the first day of class, always a happy occasion. But outside the local elementary school, many of the other parents I saw had red eyes and couldn’t speak. Around here, even little kids know Hersh, and the grown-ups had just been trying to explain why nothing anyone did was enough to bring him back."

    Bari Weiss

    x.com


  12. by Indy! on September 1, 2024 4:00 pm

    So Israel murder a couple thousand Gazan civilians with every bomb they drop, but we're supposed to stop everything because Hamas (a known terrorist organization) murdered 6 more people?

    And you guys wonder why I don't get involved in these circular Israel arguments? 🤔


  13. by oldedude on September 1, 2024 4:35 pm
    Good point Lead-

    For a person who claims to be on the TSA terrorist watch list, Tulsi Gabbard sure does a lot of flying. You know what I told OD about grandstanding politicians bamboozling the MAGA cultists. Are you SURE she is on terrorist watch list?

    First, again, if you knew what they could do with the Terrorist Watch List, your question is inane.
    House Oversight Targets TSA After Whistleblowers Revealed Federal Air Marshals Surveilled Tulsi Gabbard
    House Oversight Committee Chairman James Comer sent a letter Friday to the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) demanding information regarding former Democratic Hawaii Rep. Tulsi Gabbard allegedly being placed on the TSA’s Quiet Skies program, which is a suspected terrorist watch list.

    “My real question is, what don’t I know?” Gabbard continued. “This is the real pain and stress that’s been caused both to me and my family by this whole situation, day and night wondering if and what government institution and agency is monitoring my phone calls, surveilling me in my movement in my travels, knowing that they may be looking for some kind of excuse or derogatory action to come after me.”

    “I write with deep concern that Transportation Security Administration (TSA) officials are continuing a pattern of retaliation against whistleblowers attempting to expose waste and abuse at the agency. Most recently, Federal Air Marshals Service (FAMS) employees made protected whistleblower disclosures revealing that FAMS wasted resources and abused its authority by assigning air marshals to surveil the spouse of a Federal Air Marshal and a former U.S. Member of Congress, Tulsi Gabbard,” Comer wrote in the letter.

    “These alleged assignments are coming at a time of heightened concerns of potential terrorist attacks against the United States. Instead of holding officials accountable for this misconduct, it now appears that the whistleblowers have been targets of a ‘retaliatory investigation’ by leadership at TSA for their protected disclosures. The Committee requests TSA provide documents and communications and a staff-level briefing to better understand TSA’s use of resources and whether it is retaliating against whistleblowers,” he continued.

    msn.com


  14. by Indy! on September 1, 2024 4:58 pm

    Guess who said all that was going to happen in the immediate aftermath of 9/11? Soon as you start making any kind of "lists" in a divisive atmosphere like the USA - you're asking for trouble.



  15. by Donna on September 1, 2024 5:28 pm

    Curt, I didn't see that question you asked me until a few minutes ago. Of course I would want force used to rescue my loved ones asap, but that's not what Netanyahu has been doing, at least not primarily; he's trying to obliterate Hamas, and in doing so, many of the hostages were killed by Israel's indiscriminate bombs. And btw, the familes of many of those hostages are outraged at Netanyahu because of that.




  16. by Curt_Anderson on September 1, 2024 5:47 pm
    Donna,
    I have several Jewish friends and acquaintances (including my wife). All of them think that the way Netanyahu is going about this is all wrong. But none of them have any suggestions as to what is the "right" way that would lead to the release of the hostages. I agree with my friends that Hamas is doing this to invite retaliation thus to gain world sympathy.

    One of my friends said early on that Hamas hates Israel and Jews more than they care for their own people. It's hard to bargain with a death cult.

    Even if there was sort of deal where Hamas gets whatever it is they want which resulted in the release of the hostages, it's questionable that rewarding terrorists is good policy. Perhaps a ransom would be paid to Hamas in exchange for the hostages. If the hostages were to be returned, afterwards is Israel expected to forgive and forget? It's not in their DNA.


  17. by Donna on September 1, 2024 5:48 pm

    Some of the families of hostages are livid about
    Netanyahu's poor handling of achieving a ceasefire. From The Times of Israel:

    "'Mr. Death’: Hostage families say Netanyahu has condemned their loved ones to die

    Hamas says PM's insistence on keeping presence in Philadelphi Corridor is jamming talks; negotiator in Gilad Shalit deal claims he privately reached potential agreement with Hamas
    Several family members of hostages held by Hamas accused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Saturday of knowingly condemning the hostages to death, after reports indicated the premier is prioritizing keep forces on the Philadelphi Corridor between Gaza and Egypt over bringing back Israel’s captives.

    In a statement outside IDF headquarters in Tel Aviv, relatives said, 'Netanyahu and his partners in the cabinet decided to torpedo the [hostage-ceasefire] deal due to the Philadelphi spin, and as such are knowingly condemning the hostages to death.'"

    ***

    It's clear to me that rescuing the hostages has always been a low priority for Netanyahu.




    timesofisrael.com


  18. by Indy! on September 1, 2024 5:57 pm

    Yes. Of course he has a lot of enablers too - the people who can't for the life of them say anything negative about Israel, no matter how true it is.


  19. by Curt_Anderson on September 1, 2024 6:02 pm
    Donna,
    I just read a similar article. It may well be that Netanyahu places a higher priority on his own political survival than the release of the hostages. I still have not heard any ideas that would free the hostages, as I said in the post before yours.

    Incidentally, Hamas has not allowed the Red Cross (or Red Crescent) in to check on the hostages. Even the Nazis allowed the Red Cross to inspect POW Stalags.

    I am not convinced that Hamas has any or many hostages left alive.





  20. by meagain on September 1, 2024 6:31 pm
    Curt!

    Rocket attacks from Gaza are a different issue. They are retaliation against an occupying power. And, no, Israel is completely in the wrong in its genocidal invasion. They have been ordered to leave by an international Court and the UN has voted to condemn it. Prevented from carrying by the US and a few hangers om Even the UK did not support the US in that vote.

    Gaza has been occupied by Israel for several decades now and its coast is blockaded so that only merchandise approved by Israel can be offloaded. Israel has killed multiples of their own losses to terrorists over the years before this and not counting war losses. The world has been telling it to get out of Gaza and the West Bank from the start but, supported by the US it defies the UN,

    Terrorism is a an issue separate from this.

    There has to be a two state solution and that cannot happen until Israel leaves both Gaza and the Wst Bank,

    I have Jewish friends, too. Interestingly. in my Montreal days fighting the Quebec government, some of my strongest supporters and allies were Jewish. I still am in touch with them.


  21. by oldedude on September 1, 2024 7:04 pm
    For the record I don’t consider some blowhard who makes idle threats the same as Hamas members.
    But you're okay with them being put on the Terrorist Watch list so the government can use FISA to produce no-knock entry into their houses for nothing more than "suspicion" and not the standard due diligence of "probable cause." And, if they have any guns, those can be filed under the PATRIOT ACT, as "terrorist."

    When you understand the difference between Jews and Israelis, try me again.
    The difference to the Palestinians/Hamas and Iran is ZERO.

    The question is not about moral equivalence. It is a terrorist action compared to genocide.
    In their chant "from the river to the Sea" they are referring to genocide of the entirety of the Jews as their first step of Armegeddon. The second steps are to eradicate the Jews off the European and North American continents.

    Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology
    The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:

    1. The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
    2. The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
    3. The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
    The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories.
    4. Thus, as fighting rages in Israel and Gaza, and may yet escalate and spread, pleas for moderation, restraint, negotiation, and the building of pathways to peace are destined to find no purchase with Hamas. The covenant makes clear that holy war, divinely ordained and scripturally sanctioned, is in Hamas’s DNA.

    (originally in "The Atlantic" hardly Conservative. Because you'd have to have a "subscription" I opted for the MSN version, which cites the "Atlantic" article. The Atlantic article is cited in #2.
    msn.com
    theatlantic.com


  22. by oldedude on September 1, 2024 7:30 pm
    [Con't]
    The following doesn't count as an attack in your book?

    1. At least 4,300 rockets launched against Israel
    2. An estimated 1,000 Gazans fired rockets from the Gaza Strip, bringing the total number of participants on Hamas's side to 7,000.
    3. In total the attackers killed 1,139 people.
    4. About 250 Israeli civilians and soldiers were taken as hostages to the Gaza Strip, alive or dead, and including 30 children
    5. Many cases of rape and sexual assault reportedly occurred.

    Rockets. There is no way to select a target with a rocket. Therefore, there is a much higher rate of civilian causalities with rockets. This is what hit the soccer field killing the kids.
    I'm going to add to what curt listed. The complete lack of humanity was ordered by Hamas central command. This includes murdering entire families, from the infants to the elder children, then the father, then the mother. These atrocities included beheading and slitting the throats of the infants, raping the girls (pre-pubescent) and then the women. Then the corpses.

    The Israel Defense Forces released video footage Monday of the interrogation of a captured Hamas militant, in which he admits members of the terrorist group were instructed to slaughter everyone — including women and children — in their Oct. 7 massacre and detailed how the invaders even raped the corpses of young women.

    "It's things a person doesn't do – beheading people, having sex with dead bodies, meaning the body of a dead, young woman," the Hamas operative says in the video. "It's not humans that do that."

    At other moments during the questioning, the man acknowledges that despite the fact Islam forbids the killing of women, children and seniors, Hamas soldiers are told to do so anyway.


    My question has always been. If the US military had the same orders, what would you demand of the US military. Same goes for the Canadian/ British militaries. This is especially true of those that 1. have supported or "excused" Hamas either by words/deeds or silence. 2. Those who routinely hate the US military or use defending it only for your political gain.

    Would you allow them to get away with it? Would you feel the same as you shrug this off from Hamas? If not, why the different standard?
    msn.com
    View Video


  23. by meagain on September 2, 2024 10:22 am
    You should try acquainting yourself with facts, od. The total Israelis killed was around 1200. In response, the IDF has killed more tan 40,000 Palestinians mostly women and children. They have destroyed All of Gaza's hospitals, killing many doctors and nurses and patients on the pretext that they are killing Hamas militants. They have bombed schools: and destroyed almost the entire infrastructure of Gaza and most of the civilians' homes.

    Now they have invaded the West Bank, too, and are killing civilians there to add to the murders by settlers.

    Palestinians are not Hamas and not Iranians and have no dealings with Iran.


  24. by HatetheSwamp on September 2, 2024 11:03 am

    "In response, the IDF has killed more than 40,000 Palestinians mostly women and children."

    meagain?, bull$#!t.


  25. by oldedude on September 2, 2024 11:56 am
    First, you completely skirted my question, just to start.

    You should try acquainting yourself with facts, od.

    Trust me, I've kept up on this for the last, oh, 30 years.... It was in my daily briefs for the last 10 years of my enlistment (therefore, I was required to be up to date on every classified brief coming out for that region).

    Even Hamas, agrees that many of the "civilians" are members of Hamas. But for those illiterate in terrorist/ guerilla warfare, they're still "civilians." So we'll just start with that.

    Your knowledge of Asymmetric warfare (terrorist/ insurgent/ guerilla war) is limited at best. You missed Vietnam (when it was started to be talked about in the news), Haiti, the banana wars, etc.

    Let's first start "where" the military members are kept with their families mixed in with the "civilians." In Gaza the hospitals were built for the insurgents, and big enough to take in the civilians. The schools are run by the UN to recruit for Hamas. I cited an issue with some of the UN workers being in on the genocide on 10/7 a couple of months ago.

    If you can imagine a country's social structure built to support the government and military from birth to death (much like the Chinese system) where there is little work outside of the military.

    Also, just after 10/7, Hamas senior leader Ismail Haniyeh was blown up in Tehran just after a public show of support by the government of Tehran. Tehran is also responsible for giving about equal to $100Million/year to Hamas.

    Their infrastructure is built to support the tunnels down below where these six were brutalized and murdered. They were given money several international groups for infrastructure (electricity and water mainly) and allowed the Israelis to build theirs to support Hamas. Big mistake because the Israelis have the ability to turn "their" water and electric off at their whim.

    Hamas unilaterally attacked with the logistical and organizational support of Iran. Infants beheaded in front of their parents (mothers mostly), families burned to death inside their houses, etcetcetc. Rapes of hundreds of prepubescent girls and women (the attached picture is of a woman that's been bloodied in multiple rapes who was eventually murdered when she quit responding to the orders of her rapists). Others were taken into the tunnels, held captive, raped and tortured daily.

    So. Back to my question. Even if you could show half the "stats" you claim, I'll still give you your numbers. Does that justify the murder of 1200+ (I was using curt's numbers just for agreement and you didn't say jack shit to him) civilians in the manner that's described.

    Iran and the ‘Axis of Resistance’ Vastly Improved Hamas’s Operational Capabilities
    Iran has provided training, equipment, and financing to Hamas over the years, vastly improving the terrorist organization’s capabilities, evidenced by the cross-border attack into Israel on October 7 that resulted in more than 1,400 killed.

    The unification of Iran’s network of proxies under the purview of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Quds Force Commander Esmail Qaani has been a force multiplier and cemented Iran’s “unity of fronts” strategy as the most effective means of encircling Israel.


    Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
    The Palestinian militants behind the surprise weekend attack on Israel began planning the assault at least a year ago, with key support from Iranian allies who provided military training and logistical help as well as tens of millions of dollars for weapons, current and former Western and Middle Eastern intelligence officials said Monday.

    Hamas, the Gaza-based Palestinian militant organization that led the attack, has historically maintained a degree of independence from Tehran compared with true Iranian proxy groups such as the Lebanese-based Hezbollah. But in recent years, Hamas has benefited from massive infusions of Iranian cash as well as technical help for manufacturing rockets and drones with advanced guidance systems, in addition to training in military tactics — some of which occurred in camps outside Gaza, the officials said.

    Current and former intelligence officials confirmed that Iran had provided technical help to Hamas in manufacturing the more than 4,000 rockets and armed drones launched into Israel since Saturday. At least some Hamas militants also have undergone training in advanced military tactics, including at Lebanese camps staffed by technical advisers from Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Hezbollah, the officials said.

    cnn.com
    fpri.org
    msn.com


  26. by meagain on September 2, 2024 2:33 pm
    Your post is pure rubbish, od. I think my knowledge of war is more than equal to yours, which seems to be limited to not much more than a playground. I have written tens of thousands of words about the origins and causes of wars from WWI to the present. Lived through WWII onwards.

    Many civilians are not Hamas. Hamas is thought to have 80,000 members.

    It does not matter whether Hamas uses hospitals and schools to hide in. It is still a war crime to bomb them. Warfare against civilians is prohibited by the Geneva Convention.

    The International Court of Justice says this in its ruling: "Israel's occupation of the Gaza strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is unlawful, along with the associated settlement regime, annexation and use of natural resources.Jul 30, 2024."

    It also called Israel an Apartheid state. I don't accept it, but there are substantial arguments to say that Hamas is a guerilla, a resistance, movement.

    Netanahyu knew very well that the hostages could have been rescued through diplomatic channels but he wanted this slaughter. He also has been found to be a war criminal.


  27. by oldedude on September 2, 2024 3:13 pm
    First, you haven't been around much. In my posts, the "normal" font is what I am writing. The statement(s) I'm responding to are in "bold." The parts that are in italics are for quotes that I'm citing. I cite a lot here. That at least brings you up to the early 20th century.

    You still haven't answered my question. You're just purposefully evading.

    Your post is pure rubbish, od. I think my knowledge of war is more than equal to yours, which seems to be limited to not much more than a playground. I have written tens of thousands of words about the origins and causes of wars from WWI to the present. Lived through WWII onwards.
    What you've written is of no consequence to me. You may (doubtfully) "know" about WWI and WWII, which is in no way part of the discussion. You stopped at WWII, "maybe" Korean War. I remember you telling me that all medics had to be marked with red crosses, and it was illegal to target them. Nothing could be further from the truth. That changed in about 1965-1967 when the Viet Cong started targeting medics. The Taliban, and the Radical Islamic groups put a bounty on medics, they're usually worth about $10K.
    Combat medics of the United States military may put themselves at greater risk than many other roles on the battlefield. In recent conflicts, the enemies faced by a professional army (often insurgents) may not have respect for the laws of war and may actively target combat medics for the significant value they have in keeping the unit combat-effective. Since the non-combatant status granted to medics may not always be respected, modern combat medics carry weapons for personal defense and in most Western armies are virtually indistinguishable from regular infantrymen.

    It does not matter whether Hamas uses hospitals and schools to hide in. It is still a war crime to bomb them. Warfare against civilians is prohibited by the Geneva Convention.
    That's not true. It was changed in the asymmetrical wars when they started to use hospitals to store ammo and use as communications centers, as did Hamas, except they were launching rockets from them. Same goes for places of worship.
    Philip-Gay* said that "if a civilian hospital is used for acts harmful to the enemy, that is the legal term used", the hospital can lose its protected status under international law and be considered a legitimate target.


    *Mathilde Philip-Gay, an expert in international humanitarian law at Lyon-3 university in southeast France.
    en.wikipedia.org
    barrons.com


  28. by meagain on September 3, 2024 12:38 pm
    Your conceit is surpassed only by your ignorance, od. The killing of civilians is prohibited by the Geneva Convention, It is a war crime and the Israelis have already been found guilty of that.

    As for medics, "Medical personnel exclusively assigned to medical duties must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they commit, outside their humanitarian function, acts harmful to the enemy.

    You do a lot of posting pieces that have no relevance to the basic issue and have a lot to learn about war and the military. IT goes far beyond your hut.

    I never wasted time on research about the Korean War because its origins are clear.

    And for any interested, today is the actual anniversary of WWII. The day that Britain declared war on Germany.


  29. by oldedude on September 3, 2024 1:52 pm
    So we're going to go around and around with that again... Again. You need to renew your "knowledge."
    The killing of civilians is prohibited by the Geneva Convention, It is a war crime and the Israelis have already been found guilty of that.
    Again, no it isn't and I don't have a clue where you got that information. I will agree that weighing the loss of innocent civilian life needs to be a major consideration when weighing the mission versus the results. No militarized unit should ever target civilians (10/7 as a primary example).

    I agree with this article from the IHL.
    Given that the laws of war are intended to protect those who are not participating in hostilities during times of armed conflict, it may come as a surprise that civilians can still be lawfully killed in war. To be clear, the deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime, nevertheless, in certain situations, the foreseen, but incidental killing of civilians is permissible in war.

    IHL is a set of rules that seek to minimise the effects, destruction, and carnage of armed conflict for humanitarian reasons. It is contained in conventions, treaties, customary law and general principles, notably in The Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, and the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols of 1977.

    Although IHL’s aims are humanitarian, IHL is pragmatic in its acceptance of the realities of armed conflict. It does not outright forbid armed conflict, or even have a blanket prohibition on the killing of civilians. IHL recognises that the aim of war is to fight and win, and killing is a means towards that end. Such killing, however, cannot be unlimited.


    First question is: Define a civilian as they are seen in asymmetrical warfare. In these wars how do you tell who is a combatant? And who is not? Please define that. According to the Geneva Convention, they are not a "regular" or "recognized" "military." So according to the GC, all members of Hamas are nothing but spies. Ergo, nothing is off limits for Israel to do with the members. Is a 14 year old with an AK shooting at you a combatant? That happens a lot in these wars in both Asia and the Middle East. What about a woman with an explosive vest? They have no uniform. So how do you tell the difference?

    You do a lot of posting pieces that have no relevance to the basic issue and have a lot to learn about war and the military. IT goes far beyond your hut.
    Except I've been fighting in these wars since 1990. So my updating has been continual and personal since then. I'm not reading what someone else says. I'm studying the orders as they were put to us. All the changes of rules, "Law of Armed Conflict," "Rules of War," and "Rules of Engagement" (All US terms, I'm sure the other coalition countries have different names) are those that are under continual revision regardless of what the GC says. The articles I've shown you are updates you keep refusing to accept since 1950. It's 2024 now. Things have changed rapidly.

    And you still haven't answered my question about targeting and murdering civilians by Hamas and Iran. These are key in this discussion.
    e-ir.info


  30. by Indy! on September 3, 2024 2:43 pm

    That's a lot of typing, OD - good job. 👍


  31. by meagain on September 4, 2024 9:35 am
    How does one respond to someone who denies the Geneva Convention says what it says?


  32. by oldedude on September 4, 2024 11:11 am
    I gave you what the GC says. YOU are the one that is the denier. You need to accept there have been changes in the past 70 years. AND I gave you my citations. Argue with them. The GC is a lot like tax laws. There's a lot of conflicting information. Please correct your cranial-rectal inversion. You've been proven wrong.


  33. by oldedude on September 4, 2024 11:22 am
    Assuming that although we disagree with the civilian casualty thing. You give an absolute, that if anyone kills a civilian, even by accident, they are guilty of murder. I disagree with that, but I absolutely condemn targeting civilians, and care must be taken when considering civilian casualties (e.g. they should be kept to a minimum). What all three of our countries have agreed on, is what I have told you. This is why, for the most part, CA hasn't been a coalition member sending many, if any, combat troops and have supported the missions in Iraq and Afghanistan with medical personnel and others. No fault/no foul. The point is the Canadians don't feel comfortable with the ROE set up in country. They're not cutting and running. They send excellent doctors and Nursing staff to support the coalition.

    MY QUESTION TO YOU. WHY DO YOU NOT CONDEMN HAMAS IN TARGETING AND EXTERMINATING 1200 SPECIFICALLY TARGETED CIVILIANS, AND USE INHUMANE METHODS OF MURDERING THEM? NONE of these things can ever be construed as any reasonable measure of any sort of civilized warfare. And yet, you support it. I'm just wondering about this. You seem to be two-faced about it.


  34. by meagain on September 4, 2024 3:23 pm
    I don't give an absolute except in the knowledge of the wording of the Geneva Convention. And nurdering a civilian would be murder. Don't be naive enough to think we don't know the difference with just killing.

    I did not specifically condemn Hamas, at least I don't think I did, because it is not relevant to the matter. The actions of the IDF under the orders of the Israeli government is the topic. I get a little tired of people trying to make it mandatory to condemn the terrorist act in every question related to the Wcr Crin=mes of Israel. Why not also make it mandatory to talk of the ongoing terrorism of settlers on the West Bank and their consistent murdering of Palestinians?


  35. by oldedude on September 4, 2024 4:21 pm
    I don't give an absolute except in the knowledge of the wording of the Geneva Convention.
    You gave me absolutes: "The killing of civilians is prohibited by the Geneva Convention, It is a war crime and the Israelis have already been found guilty of that." Your quote. Therefore, murdering 1200 civilians with the distinct mission to murder them commit genocide as told by prisoners arrested by IDF should be "wrong."

    Or isn't it in your book? AND this is the very crux of the problem right now. Hamas entered into Israeli territory and murdered 1200 innocent civilians in a way that should be repulsive to every civilized human being. And yet you're readily defending them as if it didn't happen. Honestly, if it happened in any other country (say Bosnia, Serbia, Chechnya, etc.) I would expect that country to move swiftly and eradicate the group off the fact of the earth regardless of the civilian toll. I've said this over and over prior to you starting to post again. I can't believe that after 10/7, we've had as few instances of illegal acts by the IDF. Which doesn't mean there haven't been any. It means there are fewer I would have expected out of most countries in the world. Had this been against another Muslim country it would have been Hammurabi's law all over again.

    I also need to say it was the IDF that brokered the deal to get the Gazans out of Palestine. It was the IDF that assisted the Palestinians out of the cities into relative safer areas. It wasn't Hamas. They kept families there to use as human shields. The other ones kept there were the families of their "animals" soldiers. The Israelis are playing by Middle Eastern Rules of War. They tell the people and give them warning what they're going to do in order to minimize the civilian deaths. Does it work all the time? No.

    Third thing. Hamas stole ~95% of the medical, food, and water supplies that were brought into country (with the help of the UN). This is their form of coercion with the people. They have total control of the products in country.

    And nurdering a civilian would be murder. Don't be naive enough to think we don't know the difference with just killing.
    I think in the case of Palestinian deaths this is your absolute. In the case of Israeli/ Jewish deaths, you're extremely flexible in using that definition, and tend to downplay the act against Hamas or any other terrorist group. Except for the Irish. You hate them, so there's that.

    I get a little tired of people trying to make it mandatory to condemn the terrorist act in every question related to the Wcr Crin=mes of Israel. Why not also make it mandatory to talk of the ongoing terrorism of settlers on the West Bank and their consistent murdering of Palestinians?
    You have made it "mandatory" to talk about the Israelis. As many don't talk about the Israelis, you refuse to talk about Hamas as murderers. And you protect them.

    So. Remember some things I have said earlier. The "schools" in Palestine are recruiting schools for Hamas. The UN that gives them the "books" for the schools and supports that through their texts. The IDF entered a Palestinian camp. There was a firefight. Of the 15 or so "Palestinians" that were killed, nine were confirmed to be Hamas fighters, five of those were children. I'm thinking your numbers are wrong. Jussayin'.


  36. by meagain on September 5, 2024 12:08 pm
    Do your eyes drip blood, od?

    Genocide is fine apparently as long as it is done in revenge for a terrorist incident.

    And the IDF are to be praised for evacuating some Palestinians before they set about murdering the rest.

    Do you know that most homes, people's homes, in Gaza no longer stand? That almost the entire population are refugees in their own country. That the majority of the people are at the edge of starvation.

    Doe is mean nothing to you that the determination that the IDF is committing war crimes has been made by the ICJ? That the United Nations has voted overwhelmingly to order Isrrael to stop and leave Gaza and the West Bank and has recognised Palestinian sovereignty?

    Are you that "Ugly American" That considers your desires trump humanity's needs?


  37. by oldedude on September 5, 2024 3:39 pm
    I'm not taking these in your order. And, you took me completely out of context (meaning you lied).

    Do you know that most homes, people's homes, in Gaza no longer stand? That almost the entire population are refugees in their own country. That the majority of the people are at the edge of starvation.
    Sounds to me like their government is completely inefficient. They have the ability because they get a lot of global funding. The issue is that it all goes into their war effort. Again, they were given the opportunity to have their own electric and water. They took the money and didn't get either. This is typical for Hamas. The other piece about Hamas is that they are willing to kill their own people if it scores them political or financial gain. That's different than most countries, even in the area. It would be great if the voters would vote them out, but that won't happen without people getting "disappeared." Welcome to the Middle East.

    While there are many issues you think I'm defending, and you want me to hang people over. I don't think Israel deserved 10/7. That was so out of any sort of rules, even for the Middle East, I don't care what they do to Hamas. You also haven't told me what you do against a kid with an AK shooting at you. I've already had this discussion with Donna and po. All decisions in that case suck. Trust me. According to the Rules of War, dipshit is a combatant. Even your GC agrees with that. Hamas generally speaking, will double the count in that case. 1 child murdered by the IDF. 1 glorious soldier of Allah has been martyred!

    Your crappy housing that you mentioned. That is a fact. Again, the government refuses to rebuild. And when they do, it's crappy workmanship.

    FYSA. The explosion that killed and injured many civilians at al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza on October 17, 2023, resulted from an apparent rocket-propelled munition, such as those commonly used by Palestinian armed groups, that hit the hospital grounds, Human Rights Watch said. Hamas was very quick to blame Israel. Then there was drone and satellite footage. These boneheads blew themselves up. Something to think about.

    Doe is mean nothing to you that the determination that the IDF is committing war crimes has been made by the ICJ? That the United Nations has voted overwhelmingly to order Isrrael to stop and leave Gaza and the West Bank and has recognised Palestinian sovereignty?
    First, this is a lot like a bobby yelling at you "Halt, or I'll say Halt again!" I understand the sovereignty issue. Do I agree with it? Not really, except most of the rocket attacks are coming from the Golon, and West bank. That means something to me.


  38. by meagain on September 6, 2024 7:52 am
    You get weaker with each post, od. So, before you collapse I will leave you with your fantasies.


  39. by oldedude on September 6, 2024 1:23 pm
    Actually, I'm just getting tired of you supporting animals that sport murder human beings. You support them through and through. You see no wrong with 10/7. You actually support it. There is nothing I want to say to an animal like that.

    After fighting terrorism since the 1970's, I can sometimes understand the style of terrorism. The Irish, they're "usually" pretty targeted about who they murder, as were Bader Meinhof/RAF. They didn't just murder 1200 human beings for fun.

    You're different. Sport murder is in your nature. If you won't look at this as an affront to humanity, you're not someone I care about.


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