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Religion selectors, pages, etc.
Check out this video of Mike Johnson taking his teenage daughter to a purity ball, where she signs a pledge to him not to have sex until marriage
By Curt_Anderson
December 21, 2023 2:41 pm
Category: Religion

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House Speaker Mike Johnson took his daughter, Hannah, to a purity ball when she was a teenager.

Hannah made a virginity pledge to her father during the ball.

The ceremony was filmed by a German television outlet, which first aired it in 2015.

When it comes to parenting, Louisana's Mike Johnson is all about abstinence.

The House speaker once took his daughter Hannah to a purity ball, according to a 2015 news segment from the German television outlet n-tv. The segment was featured in a report from ABC News on Wednesday.

Purity balls are formal dance events attended by fathers and their daughters. The ceremony is popular among conservative Christians. During the event, daughters often make pledges to abstain from sex until marriage.

Cited and related links:

  1. news.yahoo.com

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Comments on "Check out this video of Mike Johnson taking his teenage daughter to a purity ball, where she signs a pledge to him not to have sex until marriage":

  1. by Ponderer on December 21, 2023 3:01 pm

    Christian Taliban.

  2. by Ponderer on December 21, 2023 3:02 pm

    So like, if they break their vow, what happens? They are out of the will?

  3. by Indy! on December 21, 2023 3:14 pm

    Why do conservative fathers need their daughters to sign pledges that they will abstain from having sex with them? Do the fathers lack the willpower to not molest their daughters? 🤔

  4. by HatetheSwamp on December 21, 2023 3:17 pm

    I love you guys! This guy has very strong Christian beliefs and he lives his life precisely accordingly and that's evil. If he claimed to believe this and lived differently...

    ...like Bernie does, BTW,... you'd trash him as a hypocrite.

    Good for you, Mike.

    Theophobia is big in the woke, white electric limousine lovin progressive Swampcult.

  5. by Ponderer on December 21, 2023 5:38 pm

    You have that a little twisted, Indy!. They are pledging not to have sex with anyone until marriage. Not just their fathers.

    I'm still curious as to the penalties for breaking this oath.

    Not that abiding by sworn oaths seems to mean a whole, or even partial, fuckofalot to religious Republicans like him.


  6. by oldedude on December 21, 2023 5:59 pm
    Lead, I agree. Considering this is a volunteer pledge of the daughter's free will and is a growth mindset within the Christian Community. I do support it. The ring they wear is a reminder of their vow, just like a wedding band is. I also don't believe it's "just" about abstinence. There is a large piece of honestly trying to live a better life according to the teachings of Christ.

    And it's not just the young women. The young men have an equal "signing" of their own. And a ring to remind them, that both sides know what it means.

    Of course, if you're an evil person, you can always mock them, and tempt a person that has taken the vow. But that falls in line with the temptations of Christ. And you learn how evil people can be to each other (see above).

    And, WTF they do is none of my concern. I don't live their lives. Just as I don't judge Donna and Po.

    This is somewhat different than a Mexican fiesta de quinceañera, when a 15-year-old is put on display to get married, and where the whole, very expensive party, is that she is a "woman" now (and ready to be bred).

  7. by Indy! on December 21, 2023 6:16 pm

    Ah, I see now Pondy - thanks for clearing that up. Perfectly honest mistake - that headline can be read a couple different ways...


    Check out this video of Mike Johnson taking his teenage daughter to a purity ball, where she signs a pledge to him not to have sex until marriage


    See what I'm saying? Why wouldn't she sign the pledge to herself (or Jesus if it's a religious thing)? What does Daddy have to do with it?

  8. by Curt_Anderson on December 21, 2023 6:42 pm
    Dang Indy, your misunderstanding almost caused me to choke on my dinner. A little ginger ale came out of my nose.

    What’s wrong with a virginity pledge ball? It’s an ostentatious display of supposedly promised chastity.

  9. by Indy! on December 21, 2023 7:05 pm

    From what I've heard the kids who take the pledge are statistically more likely to have sex before marriage.

  10. by Indy! on December 21, 2023 7:10 pm
    The Unintended Consequences of Purity Pledges
    A new study suggests teens who vow to be sexually abstinent until marriage—and then break that vow—are more likely to wind up pregnant than those who never took the pledge to begin with.
    theatlantic.com

  11. by oldedude on December 21, 2023 7:21 pm
    These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by appeals to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information but may require further investigation.

    While I'm not really sure that is wrong, you're just one of the haters they would consider as a spawn of Satan. Your ridicule is quick and deep, so your "opinion" is neither asked for or listened to.

    I would say it might be a truth because these women don't use birth control prior to having sex. That does create a problem. Although if you believe that a child is a gift, they also won't murder their child, or have it cut up into little pieces for your enjoyment and sexual satisfaction. And as far as your response, you missed the entire point of doing this. As usual.
    mediabiasfactcheck.com

  12. by Ponderer on December 21, 2023 8:06 pm

    "Although if you believe that a child is a gift, they also won't murder their child, or have it cut up into little pieces for your enjoyment and sexual satisfaction." -olde dude

    Well one would hopefully think! Especially as I am sure that I have never requested it of them.


  13. by oldedude on December 22, 2023 2:00 am
    That was a response to indy...🙄

    Not everything is about you. But thanks for at least reading a post before you answer.

  14. by HatetheSwamp on December 22, 2023 4:21 am

    And, WTF they do is none of my concern. I don't live their lives. Just as I don't judge Donna and Po.

    Bang on. That's the thing.

    po, in particular, is the most judgemental and sanctimonious person I have ever encountered. Certainly, po EFFINdemands tolerance and acceptance of all things po,... and grants it to no one.

    *****

    It's interesting to me how serious Christians struggle with the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture.

    One of the reasons pb's three-headed monster exists, i.e.:

    1. Old-school Title IX feminists.
    2. Increasingly active, radical anti-TQ LGB groups and activists.
    3. The mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who merely want to raise their children without governmental intrusion,...

    ...is that American public schools promote the hedonism that is at the core of woke, white electric limousine lovin progressive Swampcult-ism.

    The woke, white electric limousine lovin progressive Swampcult also preaches hedonism in its entertainment and in its media.

    A basic teaching of Jesus is exactly opposed to what culture promotes. “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross, and follow me."

    Christians attempt to create communities of like-minded people who seek to live the life.

    This is one example.

  15. by islander on December 22, 2023 6:30 am

    Personally? I couldn’t give a hoot what most people’s religious beliefs cause them to do as long as that behavior is benign and doesn’t hurt anybody.

    I hoped my daughters wouldn’t have sex before they were married, contraceptives were not as readily available as they are today and no parent that I know would be thrilled to hear their 15 year old daughter break the news to them that they were pregnant, but I would never demand that they make a solemn vow like that.

    I’m a realist and I knew then that actually keeping such a vow by a teenager would probably be a completely unrealistic expectation. I was brought up in a strict Catholic family and even the threat of eternal damnation went right out the window when I had my first taste of sex as a teenager LoL !!

    That old saying is true, “Nothing stands in the way of full blown lust” !! 🤣


  16. by Ponderer on December 22, 2023 6:48 am

    "You can say THAT again, Islander!"

  17. by islander on December 22, 2023 7:13 am
    Ok!! 😀 “Nothing stands in the way of full blown lust” !!

  18. by islander on December 22, 2023 7:20 am

    Hate wrote: ” It's interesting to me how serious Christians struggle with the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture.

    One of the reasons pb's three-headed monster exists, i.e.:

    1. Old-school Title IX feminists.
    2. Increasingly active, radical anti-TQ LGB groups and activists.
    3. The mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who merely want to raise their children without governmental intrusion,...

    I think that’s just more of the Movement Conservative’s propaganda. I don’t believe that for a second…Do you?

    That’s not why I left. Is that why you left?

    I think people more people are leaving today for the same reasons I did.

  19. by HatetheSwamp on December 22, 2023 7:31 am

    Your reasons?

  20. by islander on December 22, 2023 7:53 am

    Why do you want me to give you my reasons before you'll answer any of my simple questions?

    The first being do you believe what you wrote?

    If you don't want to answer that, how about my second question:

    " Is that why you left?

    Then we can talk about the reasons we left.

    If you don't want to talk about it that's OK too.

  21. by HatetheSwamp on December 22, 2023 7:59 am

    I do believe what I wrote.

    Left what? Institutionalized Christianity?

  22. by islander on December 22, 2023 8:58 am

    Excellent!

    You wrote: ” It's interesting to me how serious Christians struggle with the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture.”

    You’ve mentioned numerous times here that you’d left institutional Christianity, as have I. I am now what might be called an agnostic Christian.

    You gave three reasons why you think others have left and those reasons explained the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture

    I don’t think those are the reasons institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture.

    In my opinion, one of the reasons people today are leaving institutional religion is “religious dogma”.

    Religious dogma is an unquestionable truth decreed by the church or by God.

    People today are more open to questioning the religious dogma of institutionalized religion and in the process of examining and questioning; they have been able to see what they believe are many contradictions and articles of faith in those dogmatic decrees that would require them to accept such contradictions without question, and in order to do that they would have to commit intellectual suicide.

    Of course the other big thing is that they can now see the horror that religious dogmatism can bring about.



  23. by HatetheSwamp on December 22, 2023 9:27 am

    isle,

    We are of a similar age but what, in our pasts, we have turned away from is very different. You were Catholic. I raised in a radically liberal mainstream Protestant denomination. When I began to hang with my eventual wife, I checked out evangelical-ish-ism.

    Dogma was never pushed on me. I agree with what you've said to criticize it, but dogma is not essential to my story.

    I believe in the way of life Jesus taught. To oversimplify to an extreme level, I became fed up with institutionalized church-based Christianity, because what it does is not what Jesus modeled and taught.

  24. by islander on December 22, 2023 10:03 am

    It sounds to me like the three points you mentioned were not the reason you left institutionalized Christianity, they weren’t for me either.

    According to your beliefs do you think there is anything a person has to know or believe such as taking a leap of faith, in order to be “saved”.

  25. by Indy! on December 22, 2023 10:09 am

    The reason the wingdings get all upset when their backwards ideas get challenged by FACTS is they know they're wrong. A simple google - "teenage pregnancy rates according to political views" yields...


    "Conservative has the largest effect on all teen birth rate outcomes. Conservative states have approximately 11 more births per 1,000 teens than liberal states."


    The more things change - the more they stay the same
    creativematter.skidmore.edu

  26. by Indy! on December 22, 2023 10:10 am
    Abortion? Since Odorous brought it up?

    More Republican Women Than You Think Have Had Abortions. Here’s How I Know.
    We pretend my story is rare among conservatives. It’s not, and Republicans should stop acting like it.

    politico.com

  27. by HatetheSwamp on December 22, 2023 10:15 am

    isle,

    Based on my understanding of early Christian history, the New Testament Gospels accurately detail the teachings of Jesus. By that I mean that what early Christians are known to have done corresponds to the Gospels' account of His teaching. The Gospels suggest that the ongoing message of Jesus calls all people to repent and to believe the gospel.

    Intellual knowledge IMO is not important apart from the very essentials. While dogma ain't the big deal for me that it is for you, I despise the fact that, in institutionalized Christianity, knowing and believing the minutia matters a lot and simply following the path Jesus walked sometimes matters not at all.

  28. by Curt_Anderson on December 22, 2023 11:03 am
    Based on my understanding of early Christian history, the New Testament Gospels accurately detail the teachings of Jesus. By that I mean that what early Christians are known to have done corresponds to the Gospels' account of His teaching. The Gospels suggest that the ongoing message of Jesus calls all people to repent and to believe the gospel. —-HtS

    As I proved earlier today, you're ignernt sanctimonious...

    ...because you choose to be "informed" by sources that fuel the flames of the preferences and prejudices that you bring with you to every moment of your life.

  29. by oldedude on December 22, 2023 11:21 am
    I was always taught that a persons beliefs was their own business. I have a problem with family members trying to convert. If you want to ask, fine. But I was taught and believe it's beyond the pale rude to criticize religious beliefs'. Lead has far more compassion than you've ever shown. That seems to be a much larger part of his life than yours.

  30. by HatetheSwamp on December 22, 2023 11:45 am

    As I proved earlier today, you're ignernt sanctimonious...

    ...because you choose to be "informed" by sources that fuel the flames of the preferences and prejudices that you bring with you..."

    Clearly, my words hit very, very close to home.

  31. by oldedude on December 22, 2023 12:17 pm
    As I proved earlier today, you're ignernt sanctimonious...

    ...because you choose to be "informed" by sources that fuel the flames of the preferences and prejudices that you bring with you to every moment of your life.

    Isn't that how you got your core values? And it appears to me that you're the ignernt sanctimonious person in the conversation. You may not believe. You may disagree with his views. You're free to do that. And as usual, your response is pretty sanctimonious in itself.

  32. by islander on December 22, 2023 12:25 pm
    Hate, you say: ” While dogma ain't the big deal for me that it is for you”

    It’s not a big deal for me. It was only a big deal when I was much younger and struggling with the teaching that I had to believe something that I knew wasn’t really true in order to be “saved”.

    Per your example example: In order to be “saved” You say I must repent and believe the Gospel.

    I think most normal people, when they do something they believe is wrong feel sorry for what they’ve done and wish they hadn’t done it. I’m not talking about psychopaths or sociopaths, or other people with emotional or mental disorders.

    And you say we must “believe the Gospel”? That’s too vague an answer…Are you saying we must take the stories in the Gospels literally? Must a person believe that a ghost, albeit a Holy Ghost, impregnated a teenage virgin who was engaged to Joseph, and she gave birth to God’s son who, although being completely innocent himself, had to be put to death because ‘we’ sinned, in order that we ‘might’ be saved?

    And what about the billions of people since the beginning of mankind who never knew or heard of any of this…Can they be saved?

    These are the kind of questions I’m talking about.


  33. by Curt_Anderson on December 22, 2023 12:49 pm
    It was only a big deal when I was much younger and struggling with the teaching that I had to believe something that I knew wasn’t really true in order to be “saved”. —Islander

    “Faith is believing what you know ain't so.” —Mark Twain

  34. by HatetheSwamp on December 22, 2023 1:03 pm

    And you say we must “believe the Gospel”? That’s too vague an answer…

    Bottom line. This really an argument that you have with Jesus.

    I'm saying that that is what the New Testament "Gospels" portray as the essential message of Jesus and that, based on extremely early, very well preserved documents produced by members of the Christian community, it's the message that they preached...and believed.

  35. by islander on December 22, 2023 1:55 pm


    Hate wrote: ” Bottom line. This really an argument that you have with Jesus.”

    No it isn’t. You are not Jesus.

    We’re discussing your statement regarding the reasons that brought about ”the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture”

    You claimed the reasons were:

    ”1. Old-school Title IX feminists.
    2. Increasingly active, radical anti-TQ LGB groups and activists.
    3. The mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who merely want to raise their children without governmental intrusion,...

    I disagreed and was explaining some of the reasons I think are responsible and why I myself left.

    Conversations like this one that I’ve been having with you is another reason Christians are leaving the churches.

    And that is the inability to get straightforward answers by clergy and people like yourself. And the mental gymnastics you all have to go through in order to avoid giving honest straightforward answers to simple questions, and this is as clearly visible to them as it is to me.

  36. by islander on December 22, 2023 2:08 pm

    Curt, That one by Mark Twain and this one are two of my theological favorites !!

    "Sin is doin' something you know ain't right" !! 👍

  37. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 3:58 am

    isle,

    Re: We’re discussing your statement regarding the reasons that brought about ”the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture”

    You claimed the reasons were:

    ”1. Old-school Title IX feminists.
    2. Increasingly active, radical anti-TQ LGB groups and activists.
    3. The mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who merely want to raise their children without governmental intrusion,...

    No. Sorry. You misunderstand the point I was making, and, really, as an aside.

    In my post, what came after what you quoted is...

    "...is that American public schools promote the hedonism that is at the core of woke, white electric limousine lovin progressive Swampcult-ism."

    My point is that what American public schools are teaching is creating multiple responses, included among them, the evolution of my so-called "three-headed monster."

    I made that observation in the context of noting that "Christians struggle with the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture." (#14)


    You and I were both around when...IN AMERICAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS...the school day began with Bible reading...by the teacher. In that era, institutional Christianity dominated the culture.

    Adapting to the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture has been a struggle for the American church...

    ...and, as I also pointed out, what's being taught in American public schools has led to the curious alliance among...

    1. Old-school Title IX feminists.
    2. Increasingly active, radical anti-TQ LGB groups and activists.
    3. The mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who merely want to raise their children without governmental intrusion.


    As I said, none of this is connected in any way to why I, personally, abandoned the institutionalized church.

    I'd love to continue that convo with you. But, for me, it's a separate subject.

    I'd even be happy to detail my understanding of the early Christian definition of the "gospel." But, that's really separate from the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture.

    Where we go from here is entirely up to you.

  38. by oldedude on December 23, 2023 5:54 am
    Lead- I, too don't think they are the same subject.
    I continue to respect the LGBTQ+ community, sometimes to the dismay of my inlaws.

    I continue to believe that everyone has a right to change their gender. The caveat is to be "an adult" to start the transition. If the parents want to sign off on transitioning, so be it.

    Those issues may be in contradiction to many Christians. Oh well.

    My issues with:
    1. Old-school Title IX feminists.
    2. Increasingly active, radical anti-TQ LGB groups and activists.
    3. The mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who merely want to raise their children without governmental intrusion.

    is a legal/political issue. I don't believe children should be forced at a young age (elementary, and middle school) to learn about anal sex, blow jobs, jacking each other off, and fucking in the schools. And without the knowledge of the parents. This is a legal issue and has been supported by the courts. PARENTS are responsible for raising their children.

    A mother was responsible for allowing her 6-year-old to take a gun to school (through negligence) and will go to jail, sentencing pending). You can't have it both ways. Either you believe creeper pedojoe, or you believe the courts about OUR law. China has a different attitude. If you like their schools, move there (if they'll take you).

  39. by islander on December 23, 2023 6:17 am

    My children went through public schools just as my grandchildren have and some are still in public schools. Since you never had children, you’ve never had the experience I have as a parent and I can tell you right now that you are sadly mistaken if you think our public schools are the reason or even part of the reason institutional Christianity is losing ground and no longer dominant in our culture.

    I sent my children to school to learn, I did not send them there for religious instructions or to be taught the moral values that we taught them in our home, and that is the way I want it and the way it should be. Teaching my kids moral values was my responsibility not the state or Federal government’s and I wouldn't want them taught your values in school. My kids and now their own children have turned out to be good, kind, and compassionate human beings, which are the important qualities that matter most. The easiest thing in the world is to blame someone else for one's own failures. In this case, when their child is lacking the moral values those parents were responsible for teaching them....Blame the schools.

    As for woman's, lib, my daughter’s, for instance, are independent woman and the opportunities open to them today, would have been much more difficult or even non-existent when my wife and I were in school.

    If you really want to know why Christianity is losing ground, look around, turn on the news, look at who these “Christians” have elevated to the highest office in the land, look at the people at his rallies, look at the hypocrisy and the phoniness, then you will know why Christianity is losing ground…It’s the so called Christians themselves who are destroying Christianity and not just institutional Christianity. Watch the video and you’ll see who is destroying Christianity…

    View Video

  40. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 6:27 am

    OD,

    I continue to believe that everyone has a right to change their gender. The caveat is to be "an adult" to start the transition. If the parents want to sign off on transitioning, so be it.

    Those issues may be in contradiction to many Christians. Oh well.

    There's a very meaningful passage, contained in one of the earliest extant acknowledged-to-be-genuine Christian documents in which Saul of Tarsus describes, among other disciplines, what, according to Christian beliefs is sexual immorality...adultery, fornication, homosexuality...in which he says that Christians have no place judging people who are not disciples, only others who claim to be followers of the teachings of Jesus.

    Like you, my objections to American LGBTQ-ism is political and focused on protecting minors from grooming and abuse.

    My sense is that you an I are sympatico on this issue...

    ...as is my three-headed monster with both of us.

  41. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 6:39 am

    Since you never had children, you’ve never had the experience I have as a parent and I can tell you right now that you are sadly mistaken if you think our public schools are the reason or even part of the reason institutional Christianity is losing ground and no longer dominant in our culture.

    You may recall that, during many of my years in institutionalized Christianity, my wife and I were employed in what's called Youth Ministry. Over the years, we knew many dozens of teens...and many of their teachers.

    I'm probably not as ignernt as you would like to imagine.

    But, I follow Gays Against Groomers and Libs of TikTok on X. Believe me, I know a lot about the actual, as po'd say, EFFINpreaching of hedonism in public schools.

    *****

    And, as I was careful to say, the baseline of my assertion is the day when institutionalized Christianity was supported by daily readings from the Christian Bible BY PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.

  42. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 6:44 am

    If you really want to know why Christianity is losing ground, look around, turn on the news, look at who these “Christians” have elevated to the highest office in the land, look at the people at his rallies, look at the hypocrisy and the phoniness, then you will know why Christianity is losing ground…It’s the so called Christians themselves who are destroying Christianity and not just institutional Christianity.

    As far as your video is concerned, all of us bring our preferences and prejudices to every moment of our lives. You, obviously, feed your heart with "news" that fuels the flames of what's dark in your heart.

  43. by islander on December 23, 2023 6:51 am

    You don't have to watch the video

    Like I said; "If you really want to know why Christianity is losing ground, look around, turn on the news, look at who these “Christians” have elevated to the highest office in the land, look at the people at his rallies, look at the hypocrisy and the phoniness, then you will know why Christianity is losing ground…It’s the so called Christians themselves who are destroying Christianity and not just institutional Christianity."


  44. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 7:26 am

    To OD: You've been following this exchange between isle and me. Am I being nearly as aggressive and confrontational as is isle?


    isle,

    Like I said; "If you really want to know why Christianity is losing ground, look around, turn on the news, look at who these “Christians” have elevated to the highest office in the land...

    Here's the God-honest, baha, truth, isle: Harvard. Yale. Princeton. Heck, even EFFINNotre Dame have thriving Seminaries/Divinity Schools that people are beating the doors down to enter. The churches that their graduates serve run homeless shelters and soup kitchens for the poor.

    And, yikes, man! If there's one person the two of us would agree was heroic it'd be Baptist minister, Martin Luther King, Jr..

    Even your Joe Biden is a devout Catholic.

    That's the Christianity that most Americans think of, from what I can tell.

    I think that you're focusing on a flawed image. But, why?

  45. by islander on December 23, 2023 7:34 am

    They are not the ones who are destroying Christianity...

  46. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 7:42 am

    But, and remember, I detest institutionalized Christianity, too. Your video doesn't match the image of Christianity shared by the people I know who no longer participate in the American institutional church.

  47. by islander on December 23, 2023 7:58 am

    I don’t detest the institutionalized churches, it’s just that they are too dogmatic, and much of their dogma is the same as yours.

  48. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 8:01 am

    What is my dogma?

  49. by islander on December 23, 2023 9:04 am

    What you’ve posted here I think presents a pretty clear picture of some the religious dogmatic beliefs you hold that are necessary to being saved.

    Religious dogma is an unquestionable truth decreed by the church or by God.

    You wrote; The Gospels suggest that the ongoing message of Jesus calls all people to repent and to believe the gospel.

    When I asked you; Must a person believe that a ghost, albeit a Holy Ghost, impregnated a teenage virgin who was engaged to Joseph, and she gave birth to God’s son who, although being completely innocent himself, had to be put to death because ‘we’ sinned, in order that we ‘might’ be saved?

    Your response was; that is what the New Testament "Gospels" portray as the essential message of Jesus.

    You can help clear this up by telling me if it is true that I MUST accept the above and repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved. Remember...I'm NOT asking you to repeat what Jesus or the Gospels say, I know what they say.


  50. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 9:41 am

    I'd love to have a thoughtful conversation with you about these things. Sadly, while we've attempted that in the past, we've always failed.

    You can help clear this up by telling me if it is true that I MUST accept the above and repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved.

    In the past, this is the point that our dialog has always disintegrated. You're treating me as if you're an inquisitor. You're not a District Attorney and I'm not an accused criminal.

    You're offering me the opportunity to accept your mis-description of what Christians believe, or not...nuthin else.

    po often resorts to "Do you STILL beat your wife" questions. That's what you have asked me.

    Among the choices you are offering me, I plead none of the above.

    If we explore nuances, from this point, it will be up to you.

    Your choice. I'm here. I'm willing.

  51. by Curt_Anderson on December 23, 2023 9:54 am
    HtS,
    He is not asking you a “did you stop beating your wife“ or any sort of trick question. Islander is attempting to discern to what degree you are a Bible literalist. You seem to be reluctant to admit that you believe the mythological, unsupportable parts of Christianity.

  52. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 10:09 am

    Probably, Curt.

    But...a biblical literalist of a very peculiar fundamentalist-ish Roman Catholic bent. He's forcing on me a category that is entirely inappropriate to describe what I think and how I feel.

    I'm a pretty straight down the line Kierkegaardian, as I've been making clear for, as po'd say, EFFINyears. I'm pretty sure if isle gave Søren that question, he'd a said, "Not the point...by a looooooooong shot. Totally irrelevant."

    And, he ain't my prosecuting attorney... with be an orthodox Roman Catholic a heinous capital crime.

  53. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 10:13 am

    BTW, Curt:

    ...mythological, unsupportable parts of Christianity. Baha, bubba.

    Let me just say this about that and let me make this perfectly clear.

    That was good enuff for Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King, Jr.. Ain't!!!!!?

    For Pascal and Descartes, too, for that matter Baha. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeha. Haha!

  54. by Curt_Anderson on December 23, 2023 10:22 am
    Before the time of airplanes, a lot of people sincerely believed there was a literal heaven above the clouds. it’s difficult to square that belief nowadays with the advent of space travel.

    One of the more modern names that you mentioned, Martin Luther King, persistently questioned literal interpretations of biblical texts and criticized traditional Baptist teachings.

  55. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 10:26 am
    Really?

    How bout a few, as po'd say, EFFIN-TRUSTWORTHY links.

    Trustworthy.

  56. by Curt_Anderson on December 23, 2023 10:44 am
    HtS,
    You go first. You were the one who brought up Martin Luther King and his purported beliefs. Show us that Martin Luther King was a Bible literalist… citing a reliable source.

    After you prove your case, or admit that you can’t, I will show you my evidence.

  57. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 10:48 am

    Well, no. You brought it up. What I do know is that many of King's speeches and sermons were, excuse the accurate adverb, slavishly reliant on the biblical text of the message of the Hebrew prophets.

  58. by Curt_Anderson on December 23, 2023 10:53 am
    Quote and cite just one of Martin Luther King’s “slavish” speeches.

  59. by islander on December 23, 2023 11:17 am

    "You're offering me the opportunity to accept your mis-description of what Christians believe, or not...nuthin else.

    No I wasn't. see post # 49

    When I asked you; Must a person believe that a ghost, albeit a Holy Ghost, impregnated a teenage virgin who was engaged to Joseph, and she gave birth to God’s son who, although being completely innocent himself, had to be put to death because ‘we’ sinned, in order that we ‘might’ be saved?

    Your response was; that is what the New Testament "Gospels" portray as the essential message of Jesus.

    You also wrote; The Gospels suggest that the ongoing message of Jesus calls all people to repent and to believe the gospel.

    My question remains, "You can help clear this up by telling me if it is true that I MUST accept the above and repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved"

  60. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 11:32 am

    Okay.

    I do think that, in order to inherent the Kingdom of God, a person must "repent and believe the gospel."

    So,...

    What do you suppose it means to believe the gospel?

    You seem to be demanding of me that to believe implies simple intellectual assent to a series of declarations. If so, you're trying to reduce my faith to categories that are yours...and far from mine. Very, very far. Very.

    So? What's BELIEVE the gospel mean?

  61. by islander on December 23, 2023 11:45 am

    Curt, I’ve run into what Hate seems to be going through when discussing these kinds of questions others, some, even in my own family, and it can be painful to watch.

    I think it’s a type of cognitive dissonance:

    Cognitive dissonance is a term for the state of discomfort felt when two or more modes of thought contradict each other. *

    It’s about having to accept two contradictory beliefs at the same time.

    Makes me think of the Catholic joke about the priest and the poor little alter boy;

    The priest and the alter boy were putting away the vestments after Sunday Mass and the alter boy asked the priest, “Is the bread and wine really the body and blood of Christ?” And the priest, a little surprised responded, “Yes it is son. You believe that don’t you? ” The little boy, in a somewhat nervous voice says, “Oh yes Father, I believe it’s the body and blood of Christ…nervous pause...But it’s really bread and wine, right?”

    * Psychology Today







  62. by islander on December 23, 2023 11:51 am

    "What's BELIEVE the gospel mean?

    It means I accept as true. Just as I believe in my heart of hearts that my wife truly loves me.

    It's NOT the belief of the alter boy that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ!

  63. by HatetheSwamp on December 23, 2023 12:18 pm

    So,...let me understand. I can intelligently assent to the, uh, dogma of the gospel but live the life Hitler lived... and inherent the Kingdom of God. That's your take on the essential, ongoing message of Jesus?

    I'm trying to understand what you think.

  64. by islander on December 23, 2023 12:35 pm

    Of course not. That's not the question.

  65. by Curt_Anderson on December 23, 2023 12:49 pm
    HtS,
    I didn't expect you to be able to back up your assertion about MLK. What you claim to believe was not "good enuff" for Dr. King.

    "He persistently questioned literal interpretations of biblical texts and criticized traditional Baptist teachings." ---The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr. Volume I

    "King did not believe in the deity of Christ or that he rose from the dead. In addition, he also rejected the doctrines of virgin birth, the second coming of Christ, and the existence of a literal hell." ---Virgil L. Walker, Executive Director of Operations for G3 Ministries,

    "I spent a great deal of time reading the works of the great social philosophers. I came early to Walter Rauschenbusch’s (who rejected inerrancy of the Bible) Christianity and the Social Crisis, which left an indelible imprint on my thinking by giving me a theological basis for the social concern which had already grown up in me as a result of my early experiences." --Martin Luther King

    kinginstitute.stanford.edu
    g3min.org

  66. by HatetheSwamp on December 24, 2023 3:52 am

    Question, Curt. Can one question biblical "inerrancy" and still believe, literally, the Bible's message!!!!!?

    You and isle are throwing around terms you don't understand and using them as billyclubs.

    King, certainly, wasn't a fundamentalist Baptist... but he embraced the Bible's... JESUS'S... teachings on justice and metcy with radical, uncompromising literalism... was willing to die for it... and EFFINdid.

  67. by HatetheSwamp on December 24, 2023 4:10 am

    What isle ALWAYS does when he realizes that he's busted and can't createa strawman:

    Curt, I’ve run into what Hate seems to be going through when discussing these kinds of questions others, some, even in my own family, and it can be painful to watch.

    isle,

    When you realize that people whose beliefs are at odds with yours can't be reduced to a strawman, you, as po'd say, got nuthin.

    Sorry, gang. I tried... again. It's a "turn the other cheek" thing.

    But, isle, if you ever want an honest, in -depth dialog where everyone takes the other respectfully and seriously, I'm your guy!

  68. by oldedude on December 24, 2023 7:01 am
    Lead- Growing up, I learned that bobcats were really cool to watch in the wild. And the first thing to remember is to never back them into a corner. It seems like this has turned into them feeling backed into a corner and them being unsure and needing to feel better about their confusion about their own thoughts. If either of them was secure in their thoughts, they wouldn't be forcing you to agree with them.

    Alas! not a time for Hammurabi, but a time to turn the other cheek. Agreed.

  69. by islander on December 24, 2023 8:06 am

    It's not just institutional Christianity that is losing ground in America, it's Christianity itself.

    If Hate wants to reverse this trend, assuming he does, he is, at some point going to have to acknowledge the real reasons this is happening.
    pewtrusts.org

  70. by HatetheSwamp on December 24, 2023 8:26 am

    The eight alternatives “are not meant as predictions of what will happen,” the report cautions, but rather as “formal demographic projections of what could happen under a few illustrative scenarios.”

    Check out Kierkegaard's three stages of existence. Genuine Christianity can't be polled.

    My point all along.

    What you rejected, as far as I can tell, is stage two Roman Catholicism...and, I'm with ya on that.
    study.com

  71. by Indy! on December 24, 2023 10:13 am

    Paywall on your video a couple minutes in. I agree with the first part though - faith in god is the only thing a person could have. The same logic applies to a lot of things...

    You gotta have faith the Trump or DeSantis give a rat's ass about you or conservative values.

    You gotta have faith George W. Bush (aka Smirk) was "born again".

    You gotta have faith Mayor McCheese is an actual mayor.

  72. by islander on December 24, 2023 11:32 am

    According to Kierkegaard Faith does not have logic, reason, or rationality, that’s why Martin Luther said Reason is the devils whore.

    The problem with that is, a person without logic, reason, or rationalty has no defense against fraud…And we’ve all seen how that turns out.

  73. by HatetheSwamp on December 24, 2023 11:58 am

    The problem with that is, a person without logic, reason, or rationalty has no defense against fraud…And we’ve all seen how that turns out.

    Oy, bruh. Exactly that's what a pseudo-rationalist would say. I was you once, until I was about to exit my 20s. I learned that a life that balances head and heart is superior to one in which Mr Spock is the image of the ideal.

    Just curious: How does Kierkegaard's way turn out? It produces Martin Luther King, Jrs.? Dietrich Bonhoeffers? Blaise Pascals. Heck, Pope Francises? Not so bad, eh?

    On SS, the most purely, naïvely Kierkegaardian... in practice, is po... who refuses to quell the inner self but to blatantly and fiercely pursue the preferences and prejudices that dominate po's heart. It's why pb has said, by now, EFFINhundreds of times, that he admires and envies po. pb pursues Kierkegaard's way. po nails it!

    And, it's why you suggesting that what makes pb pb is dogma is horsepucky. A totally different paradigm.

    Subjectivity is truth, BABY!

  74. by islander on December 24, 2023 12:10 pm

    They all used logic and reason.

    Click on the picture on post # 72 if you want to see one example of what happens when one abandons reason and depends on faith.

  75. by oldedude on December 25, 2023 10:18 am
    You remind me so much of the bible thumpers that used to ring our doorbell then demand you change your religion to exactly theirs. Actually, there are family friends that do the exact same thing. You can be a Christian, but you're still going to hell three ways because you're not exactly what facet they are.

  76. by islander on December 26, 2023 11:48 am

    "You remind me so much of the bible thumpers that used to ring our doorbell then demand you change your religion to exactly theirs" ~ od

    Who the heck are you talking to ???

  77. by oldedude on December 26, 2023 3:24 pm
    You. I've been watching how you treat others that may have different religious views than you, and that's what you sound like.

  78. by islander on December 26, 2023 4:23 pm

    oldedude, why do you feel you have to make stuff like that up?

    Can you give me an example of of me trying to demand that someone change their religious beliefs to the same as mine?

    And if you think you can give an example of what you are accusing me of I expect you to copy and past what I said. simply saying that's what I do won't cut it..

    Go ahead...Give it a try...You don't even know what my religious beliefs are or if I even have any.

  79. by HatetheSwamp on December 27, 2023 3:30 am

    isle to OD: Can you give me an example of of me trying to demand that someone change their religious beliefs to the same as mine?

    And if you think you can give an example of what you are accusing me of I expect you to copy and past what I said. simply saying that's what I do won't cut it..

    That's not his point. And, I've said the same thing about you in the past.

    You have the same mindset about what you believe... and about what others believe... as a 1970s Jerry Falwell Christian Fundy had. You remove Jesus and substitute woke progressive Swampcult Hate-ism. But, the attitude is the same.

    I've been saying on SS since my early days on the old forum that 21st century American progressivism is the new fundamentalism.

    And, I'm right.

  80. by islander on December 27, 2023 4:38 am

    ”That's not his point.”

    That was exactly his point and he was dead wrong...and you, Hate, are simply projecting again.

  81. by HatetheSwamp on December 27, 2023 5:44 am

    isle,

    There's a unique quality to the progressivism of all you. An ethos. A mood. You may well remember that OD and pb began observing, EFFINyears ago, that your progressive political beliefs serve the same role for you that religion serves in many of the devout fill-in-the-blank religion...

    ...and, OD and pb came to that conclusion independent of each other.

    You may be right. We may be crazy. But, the reality that both of us arrived at that conclusion on our own... after much posting with you would give a person honest with themself about themself something to reflect on.

    You? I doubt it.

  82. by islander on December 27, 2023 6:02 am

    ” your progressive political beliefs serve the same role for you that religion serves in many of the devout fill-in-the-blank religion” ~ Hate

    Again, you’re projecting. You don’t even know what my religious beliefs are, or if I even have any. Politics and religion should not be mixed.

  83. by HatetheSwamp on December 27, 2023 6:10 am

    Why are you so defensive? It's not an insult. I'm curious. Why you take this to heart.

    As to my projection? Truth? I wish it were true of me...as I've said many times. But, it ain't.

    All of us bring our preferences and prejudices to every moment of our lives. You fuel them. That's what Heather is all about. Me? As much as it vexes me, I resist them... fiercely. I get that from my dad, who always struggled to be fair.

  84. by islander on December 27, 2023 6:25 am

    Hate ~ When you’re unable to put forth any kind of reasonable argument…You can be counted on to simply post some of your time worn pat responses.…Try to do better next time.

  85. by HatetheSwamp on December 27, 2023 6:43 am

    Oy freakin vey, isle. That's a porcupine quality bristle.

    I'm dealing in fact. Period.

    Fact: Both OD and pb concluded, independently, EFFINyears ago, that your progressivism serves you in the way that religion serves other people. That we have thought that is fact. It's undeniable.

    Fact: For both OD and pb that is an observation, not an accusation. Neither of us considered it to be a character flaw. It's merely a characteristic. It's morally neutral. It's not even that rare among people with very definite political opinions. In fact it's fairly common.

    Fact: For years, when either of us mentions it, you go EFFINbonkers...

    ...and, that's the peculiarity.

    Why do you think you're being insulted? We've gone out of our way to tell you that we don't mean to insult you. Why?

  86. by islander on December 27, 2023 7:15 am

    "Why do you think you're being insulted?" ~ Hate

    Insulted ??? LoL !!

    Insulted by whom ?

  87. by HatetheSwamp on December 27, 2023 7:23 am

    Wow!

    You think that you're not being defensive!!!!? As I said, EGADS!

    You may be as deficient in self-awareness as any adult I've ever encountered outside of a mental health care facility. So, it's possible.

  88. by islander on December 27, 2023 7:39 am

    "You may be as deficient in self-awareness as any adult I've ever encountered outside of a mental health care facility" ~ Hate

    What you believe is "self-awareness", those professionals in the mental health field recognize as narcissism !

    So...I acknowledge my deficiency in self-awareness and we all recognize what a self-aware person you are ! 🤣

  89. by HatetheSwamp on December 27, 2023 8:33 am

    The inescapable bottom line, it seems, is that two of us, after many years of acquaintance in this forum, are convinced that your progressive political beliefs serve the same role for you that religion plays in the lives of many of the devout.

    Apparently, we're forced to agree to disagree.

  90. by islander on December 27, 2023 2:59 pm

    ”bottom line, it seems, is that two of us, after many years of acquaintance in this forum, are convinced that your progressive political beliefs serve the same role for you that religion plays in the lives of many of the devout.
    Apparently, we're forced to agree to disagree”

    So you have wasted a lot time unnecessarily trying to prove that you disagree with me and now you think we have to agree to disagree……???

    Do you realize how foolish that is? That you and od disagree with me is a premise we’ve all known and accepted from the beginning.

    If you think my political decisions serve the same role for me that religion plays in the lives of many of the devote, you have failed miserably to explain how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion without having a clue as to what my…um…”religious beliefs” are, nor do you have any idea whether I even have any religious beliefs.

  91. by oldedude on December 27, 2023 3:20 pm
    If you think my political decisions serve the same role for me that religion plays in the lives of many of the devote, you have failed miserably to explain how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion without having a clue as to what my…um…”religious beliefs” are, nor do you have any idea whether I even have any religious beliefs.
    I am admitting that I know very little about your personal religious beliefs. You keep referencing other folks, but never come out with your own views. Which I think is the basis of how a person's core values affect their life.

    Although you may disagree, I would say it's more common than not for most people intertwine their view of religion with their political views.






  92. by Indy! on December 27, 2023 3:26 pm

    Biggest problem with religious folks is they think "faith" is operating on the same level as reason, ration or even love (the "heart" as peebs would say) - which is simply not true. Faith is just the socially acceptable name for superstition.

  93. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 5:52 am

    So you have wasted a lot time unnecessarily trying to prove that you disagree with me and now you think we have to agree to disagree……???

    Me? Agree? With YOU? Baha baha ha!

    Apparently, you don't know what it means to agree to disagree. I think that you are deranged and that you live in denial...

    ...oh, and, that you are a bigot.

    Agree?

  94. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 5:57 am

    Biggest problem with religious folks is they think "faith" is operating on the same level as reason, ration or even love (the "heart" as peebs would say) - which is simply not true.

    Some.

    Some, like Donna especially, a progressive America is a Christian Nation advocate, intentionally blend politics and religion.

    isle, otoh, has left the religion he was raised only to plug political bigotry in that place in his intellectual life.

  95. by islander on December 28, 2023 7:17 am

    ”I am admitting that I know very little about your personal religious beliefs. You keep referencing other folks, but never come out with your own views. Which I think is the basis of how a person's core values affect their life” ~ od

    If you honestly think I've never come out with my own views, od, you obviously haven’t read many of my posts over the years. I’ve always been absolutely straightforward about my views and have never shied away from answering any questions anyone has asked me with regard to what I think and/or what I believe. Even in this thread, if you go back to Post #15 and read the exchanges between Hate and myself that followed, right up to now, you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about.

    What I have always found to be the case in discussions with Hate is the extremes he'll go to in order to avoid giving honest straightforward answers to the questions he's asked.

    Example: Does Hate believe that in order to be saved, a person ,i>must hold certain correct beliefs? I've asked him this several times here and still haven't received a straightforward clear answer. For my part, and I've said it often enough, behavior trumps belief. In other words, it is a person's behavior that will save a person and mankind...not holding the correct religious beliefs. Holding a particular religious belief does not necessarily result in the person living in accord with it, that is, the belief might be there but the behavior is not. A kind, compassionate, and honest person, in my opinion, will be "saved", with or without any kind of religious beliefs.

  96. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 7:37 am

    Example: Does Hate believe that in order to be saved, a person ,i>must hold certain correct beliefs? I've asked him this several times here and still haven't received a straightforward clear answer.

    Oy! The truth is that I've provided complete and detailed answers. What appears is that you're unable... unwilling?... to understand me.

  97. by islander on December 28, 2023 7:56 am

    "Oy! The truth is that I've provided complete and detailed answers" ~ Hate

    Provide post number/s please.

  98. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 8:57 am

    Ahhhhhhhhhhh, c'mon man!

    I get it. As I said in a post last week, I tried...again. It's a "turn the other cheek" thing. Remember that post!!!!!?

    This "we all bring our preferences and prejudices to every moment of our lives" thing, I think, is the essential struggle of human existence. Kierkegaard would say that. He did.

    When ones life is overwhelmed by their subjectivity...and they have no self-awareness...they live entirely within the universe defined from inside themselves and, as is the case now, they can't remember what others contribute from one moment to the next.

    LOOK IT UP, isle. We were going through this a week ago! For years, you've been attempting to foist the categories you live by on the rest of the world. I imagine that you do that 24/7. Blessings to your family and neighbors!

    Gang. As I posted then. I tried. I really really tried.

  99. by islander on December 28, 2023 10:05 am

    Still no post number/s like I requested showing Hate’s claim that he “”provided complete and detailed answers”

    The question can be boiled down to…Does Hate believe that a person must hold some specific belief/s in order to be saved/enter God’s kingdom?

    My answer as I’ve made clear is no .

    If Hate answers yes to that question another important question with regard to the details would include…What must a person believe?

    Surely he must be able to answer either of those questions clearly and directly.

  100. by Curt_Anderson on December 28, 2023 10:15 am
    A prediction regarding comment #99. Rather than answer Islander’s questions, HtS will claim he already has answered numerous times.

  101. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 10:23 am

    Oyfreakinvey!

    I'm not going to surf through old posts for your lazy a$$, isle. But, I'll repeat my answer.

    I'm a Jesus-follower. The continuing, ongoing message of Jesus was the call to "repent and believe the 'gospel.'" That's what a person must do to enter the Kingdom of God.

    Is that too far above your head for you to apprehend it's import? If so, I'll do my best to break it down before, "turn the other cheek," and all.

  102. by islander on December 28, 2023 11:14 am

    ”I'm not going to surf through old posts for your lazy a$$, isle. But, I'll repeat my answer.” ~ Hate

    You don’t have to scroll through your old posts…Just the your posts in this thread.

    At any rate…from what I can decipher from your posts it would seem that your answer to the question; Do you, Hate, believe that a person must hold some specific belief/s in order to be saved/enter God’s kingdom?

    Your answer apparently is Yes

    Am I correct so far?

  103. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 11:41 am

    Ahhhhhhhhhhh. You're serving as prosecuting attorney again, eh.

    As I've offered numerous times in the past, I'm happy to engage in open and respectful dialog with you about what both of us believe but I'm not accused of a crime, and you don't represent the state in the state's attempt to throw me into the klink.

    And, don't try that po-esque do you still beat your wife question about a ghost and a virgin.

    If you want open, respectful dialog, as always, I'm your guy. Just let me know.

  104. by islander on December 28, 2023 11:55 am

    Nobody is accusing you of a crime...I'm simply asking you whether you believe that a person must hold some specific belief/s in order to be saved/enter God’s kingdom?

    I'm still baffled by your reluctance to answer such a simple question. You're not going to get into any kind of trouble whether your answer is yes or no.

  105. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 12:05 pm

    "some...specific...beliefs?"

    Again, you're foisting YOUR categories on me. But, provisionally...I guessso.

    But. Honestly. What about "repent and believe the gospel" is over your head?

  106. by islander on December 28, 2023 1:08 pm
    I’m not foisting any categories or anything else on you, unless you think the category I’m foisting on you is religion and religious beliefs. However that would seem odd since you introduced the question as to why institutional Christianity is losing ground in America.

    You ask; “But. Honestly. What about "repent and believe the gospel" is over your head?”

    Not at all, the problem with that answer is (and it’s part of Catholic Doctrine) that there are many different interpretations of what the gospel says, so like I said earlier, the requirement to believe the gospel is too vague.


    Can I now take your answer which was …I guessso to be an affirmative answer to the question as to whether a person must hold some specific belief/s in order to be saved/enter God’s kingdom?



  107. by HatetheSwamp on December 28, 2023 1:16 pm

    I’m not foisting any categories or anything else on you, unless you think the category I’m foisting on you is religion and religious beliefs. However that would seem odd since you introduced the question as to why institutional Christianity is losing ground in America.

    Clearly, you too intellectually insensitive to realize that you're foisting. But, I'm content...for now...to offer a provisional response.

    Can I now take your answer which was …I guessso to be an affirmative answer to the question as to whether a person must hold some specific belief/s in order to be saved/enter God’s kingdom?

    You're coming across as Hamilton Burger, not a fellow in a sincere, open and respectful dialog. But, provisionally.

  108. by islander on December 29, 2023 8:35 am

    As you’re aware I’m sure, the simple questions I’ve been asking have been part of the discussion about the reasons why institutional Christianity is losing ground in America.

    I’m not a dogmatic person, especially when it comes to matters which we normally wouldn’t believe but we are told we are required to believe and the dogma we are required believe cannot be justified using reason, logic, and rational thinking but must be taken on faith.

    This was one of the reasons I drifted away from institutional, often referred to as organized religion. I don’t detest organized religions I simply cannot be required to believe something that I actually don’t believe, such as the Virgin birth, three persons/one God, the atonement, etc. This Christian dogma that is a part of organized religion’s beliefs and requirements doesn’t seem much different from your own so I’m still unsure why you detest organized religion.


  109. by HatetheSwamp on December 29, 2023 9:39 am

    As you’re aware I’m sure, the simple questions I’ve been asking have been part of the discussion about the reasons why institutional Christianity is losing ground in America.

    In your mind...

    ...not mine.

    ...we are told we are required to believe and the dogma we are required believe cannot be justified using reason, logic, and rational thinking but must be taken on faith.

    isle. With the highest level of respect. This is a point at which, imo, your personal history keeps you out of touch with larger trends.

    Most Americans come from traditions within institutionalized religion in which there is no such thing as "dogma." Most, say, Baptists, may never even have heard the term. Heck, I was raised in the very mainline Protestant, liturgical United Church of Christ and I never heard the term in the church. Pentecostals, for sure, don't know what dogma is. Nor Mormons.

    Beyond Roman Catholicism, virtually no one in American Christianity is "required to believe" much of anything.

    Most of American Christianity is highly experiential.

    Baptists chafe against being challenged to be "born again," Pentecostals to speak in tongues, Mormon males to become missionaries for two years.

    Among the overwhelming majority of institutional American Christians, the issues of the virgin birth or God as a Holy Trinity are absolutely non-issues.

    If you are a Baptist and can convince other Baptists that you truly are born again, you're in.

    If you are a Pentecostal and speak in tongues, no one will ask you about your belief in the Trinity...or any of those other challenging points of doctrine. In fact, much, maybe most, of Pentecostalism rejects the doctrine of the Trinity for the "heresy" known as tri-theism.

    I have no doubt that you have your finger on the pulse of people who share your heritage. But, in America, it's a minority experience.

    I don’t detest organized religions I simply cannot be required to believe something that I actually don’t believe, such as the Virgin birth, three persons/one God, the atonement, etc. This Christian dogma that is a part of organized religion’s beliefs and requirements doesn’t seem much different from your own so I’m still unsure why you detest organized religion.

    Clearly. Because you come from the place where affirmation of dogma is consequential. To me, that's minor... nearly peripheral. To most Americans it is.

  110. by islander on December 29, 2023 10:21 am
    In Christianity dogma is a belief communicated by divine revelation, it’s the traditional term for truths believed to be indispensable to the faith of followers of Christ.

    You don’t have to call that which you believe is required to enter the kingdom of God "dogma" if you don’t want to, but it seems as though you have been contradicting yourself when you also say, ”I'm a Jesus-follower. The continuing, ongoing message of Jesus was the call to "repent and believe the 'gospel.'" That's what a person must do to enter the Kingdom of God.”

    Do you really believe that’s what a person must do to enter the Kingdom of God ?

    If so…You can call it what you will but that is one example of your religious dogma.

    You still haven’t told me why you detest organized religion…



  111. by HatetheSwamp on December 29, 2023 10:42 am
    In Christianity dogma is a belief communicated by divine revelation, it’s the traditional term for truths believed to be indispensable to the faith of followers of Christ.

    No. In Roman Catholicism it is. If you said that to a Baptist... or a Pentecostal... they'd think you'd just uttered gibberish. Trust me. I've spent time in those micro-cultures.

    Do you really believe that’s what a person must do to enter the Kingdom of God ?

    isle,

    What are we discussing?

    The demise of institutional Christianity in America?,
    Whether or not Christianity requires adherence to items of dogma?,
    My own personal theology?

    If you pick one of those at a time... or something else... I'll gladly engage you in dialog. At the moment though, I no longer know what the topic is.

    You still haven’t told me why you detest organized religion…

    Are we discussing the reason institutionalized Christianity is declining in America...or, my emotional response to institutional Christianity?

    Help me out here. Your choice.

  112. by islander on December 29, 2023 11:08 am

    ”What are we discussing?

    [1] The demise of institutional Christianity in America?,

    [2] Whether or not Christianity requires adherence to items of dogma?,

    [3] My own personal theology?” ~Hate

    All three are connected.

    [1] You brought up what you thought were the reasons for the demise of institutional Christianity in America. I disagreed with you.

    [2] Adherence to items of Dogma was one of the reasons I gave and it was one of the reasons I personally drifted away from organized religion.

    [3] You claimed that only Catholics believe in the Devine Revelation of truths believed to be indispensable to the faith of followers of Christ = Dogma

    The questions I was asking you demonstrated your own religious dogma.






  113. by HatetheSwamp on December 29, 2023 11:36 am

    [1] You brought up what you thought were the reasons for the demise of institutional Christianity in America. I disagreed with you.

    If I did, I don't recall it. If you can link me to that comment... because I can't recall organizing my thinking carefully enough to put it into sentences.

    [2] Adherence to items of Dogma was one of the reasons I gave and it was one of the reasons I personally drifted away from organized religion.

    From all the years of our SS acquaintance, I know that is true of you.

    For me, living in my world,... among Evangelicals for decades,... rejection of the virgin birth or of the Trinity and other items of doctrine isn't why people are leaving, in my experience.

    [3] You claimed that only Catholics believe in the Devine Revelation of truths believed to be indispensable to the faith of followers of Christ = Dogma

    Now we're getting somewhere.

    I have beliefs. Everyone does. But, their source isn't the church. The denomination with which I affiliated for decades is fiercely noncreedal, i.e., it's most strenuous belief is that it has no creed... no dogma. In fact, ironically, it could be said that its "dogma" is that it has no dogma.

  114. by islander on December 29, 2023 11:59 am

    You brought up what you thought were the reasons for the demise of institutional Christianity in America. I disagreed with you. ~ isle

    If I did, I don't recall it. If you can link me to that comment... because I can't recall organizing my thinking carefully enough to put it into sentences. ~Hate

    Here you are Dec. 22 post #14:

    >i>”It's interesting to me how serious Christians struggle with the reality that institutional Christianity no longer dominates the culture.

    One of the reasons pb's three-headed monster exists, i.e.:

    1. Old-school Title IX feminists.
    2. Increasingly active, radical anti-TQ LGB groups and activists.
    3. The mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who merely want to raise their children without governmental intrusion,...” I disagreed with you.

    ” I have beliefs. Everyone does. But, their source isn't the church. The denomination with which I affiliated for decades is fiercely noncreedal, i.e., it's most strenuous belief is that it has no creed... no dogma. In fact, ironically, it could be said that its "dogma" is that it has no dogma.”

    You are contradicting yourself unless you don’t really believe what you said earlier:

    “I'm a Jesus-follower. The continuing, ongoing message of Jesus was the call to "repent and believe the 'gospel.'" That's what a person must do to enter the Kingdom of God.”

    That’s an example of your religious dogma…unless of course you don’t really believe that’s what one MUST do to enter the Kingdom of God.

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