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Law selectors, pages, etc.

Trump is innocent unless proven guilty, but he’s guilty.

By Curt_Anderson
July 29, 2023 7:51 am
Category: Law

(0.0 from 0 votes)
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Trump has been federally indicted on 37 counts, and that number is probably going up. Currently federal prosecutors tout above a 95% conviction rate. The chance that he won’t be convicted at least one felony seems pretty remote.

Not to mention, Donald Trump does what every defense attorney tells their clients not to do: he keeps talking in public and incriminates himself.

On top of that, he’s facing state felony charges in New York and potentially Georgia, which incidentally if convicted on state charges even if he were elected president he couldn’t pardon himself.

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Comments on "Trump is innocent unless proven guilty, but he’s guilty.":

by Donna on July 29, 2023 8:27 am

Yeah, I mean everyone gets the American legal principle "innocent until proven guilty", but sometimes it's obvious before the trial, and sometimes even before there's been an indictment that the person is guilty. And this is one of those times. And I think if Hts and od were candid, they'd say they agree.

As for the Hunter Biden thing, there seems to be circumstantial evidence possibly linking President Biden to some unnamed crime -- and maybe he is guilty of some unnamed crime - IDK -- but it isn't nearly as obvious as in Trump's case.

by Curt_Anderson on July 29, 2023 8:55 am
Suspension of disbelief is the avoidance—often described as willing—of critical thinking and logic in understanding something that is unreal or impossible in reality, such as something in a work of speculative fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoying its narrative.

MAGA cultists are willing to believe in Trump’s narrative of his supposed innocence despite his evolving excuses and claims and indisputable facts in the public record. Conversely, when it comes to Joe Biden, they unquestioningly believe secondhand hearsay of not under oath claims of felons.

by Indy! on July 29, 2023 10:59 am

Bottom line... they're all guilty. This is the underlying truth to Indy's prediction that Biden (or whoever is president at the time) will pardon Trump. So far as Georgia (or any other situation a president can't pardon) - the people in control will do the pardoning or setting aside of the verdict or whatever is necessary to make sure he never spends a day in jail. It's the can of worms they can't open unless they want to end up in prison right beside him.

by Curt_Anderson on July 29, 2023 11:07 am
Trump won’t go to prison no matter how many felonies he is found guilty of. There is no provision in the penal code for a convict to be accompanied by Secret Service agents.

by Indy! on July 29, 2023 11:15 am

See that, folks? I already convinced Curt. 😌

by islander on July 29, 2023 12:01 pm

I'd think it would be easier and cheaper for the Secret Service to protect Trump in a prison cell than it would be to follow and protect him while he's free to go wherever he chooses and do whatever he wants.

Among other things, His exposure to other inmates would of course be limited and you have to admit...he'd be pretty easy to keep track of.

😎 Sorry Mr. President but I'm here to protect you, and you are not allowed to leave your cell, eat your meals or take a shower with the other inmates...It's all for your own protection of course, and WE are in charge and you are under our complete control now!! LOL !

I don't think Trump would like prison!! 😢

by Indy! on July 29, 2023 12:53 pm

If he were to go to prison - and I highly doubt it will ever come to that - he would be put in solitary in a SuperMax or something and have all the comforts of home available to him. More likely, if he's found guilty (practically zero chance), and the judge doesn't throw out the verdict on some technicality, and Biden (or whoever) doesn't pardon him, and he's actually punished in some way (now we're in fantasyland) - he'd probably be given an ankle bracelet tracker and restricted from doing certain things like running for office, real estate deals, or whatever else they're charging him with.

And btw, if y'all think I'm crazy on this? Just remember what happened to Epstein when he was busted for child prostitution, pedophilia and whatever else they hung on him the first time around. His "sentence" was what? Wearing an ankle bracelet, staying at home during the day - and going to "prison" to sleep every night. What do you think they'll do to a former president?

NOTHING!

by Ponderer on July 29, 2023 1:59 pm

"Trump won’t go to prison no matter how many felonies he is found guilty of." -Curt

An idea that I mentioned awhile ago was for Trump to serve his prison sentence(s) under house arrest in Mira-lago.

Now hear me out.

I am talking about a strict house arrest, with ankle bracelet, where he cannot leave the confines of the property at all. Except of course to attend other trials or for medical needs. Period.

Otherwise, he cannot leave at all. Period.

And no cell phone. Instead, if he wants to call someone, he has to pay $7.50 in cash for every ten minutes to use a phone with guards watching and recording everything. (I believe that's about average for what most prisons charge for outside calls). But he does get free basic cable! And very limited internet use, and again, with a guard right there watching and everything recorded.

Food will be prepared for him, the SS, and prison guards on the premises by ~~chefs~~ ~~cooks~~ food preparers employed by the prison system. And the food will be exactly the same as the nearest federal penitentiary's menu that day. However, he is allowed to have McDonalds brought in by an SS agent for Sunday dinner.

Visitors are kept to a specific minimum per week, like maybe two or three, not including attorney meetings. And a prison guard, along with secret service, must be present during all visits from business acquaintances, media, friends or family. He is never allowed to be in a room alone with anyone. He is not allowed to be given any gifts worth more than $20 and all gifts are examined and x-rayed. Outside gift privileges may be cancelled entirely if he doesn't maintain a perfect behavior record.

And as he has been living there for years anyway, there will already be accommodations for however many Secret Service agents are needed. And probably for the guards too.

Some may think that under such a setup, he would be getting wildly special treatment. I mean, the place is like a smallish castle after all, and lavish as Hell. I mean literally. Satan actually uses the same interior decorator as Trump does to decorate some of Hell's dungeons for torturing souls in.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the cameras. Cameras everywhere. Other than maybe in his bathroom, there will be no place that he could go on the premises and not be seen by at least one closed circuit cameras. Yep, bedroom too.

But here's the thing. The very moment Trump comprehends that he can't come and go in "his own house" and that he's constantly being watched, and that he's trapped there and that he's going to be trapped there for years, that garish pimp's wet dream of a castle will instantly feel more like a prison to him than Rikers even might.

And the funny part is that he won't be able to complain about any "horrible conditions" he has to live under. But it will be funny as hell watching him try to. While everyone goes on about him having "lavish" prison accomodations and is thinking he got off light, he will be pulling what little hair he has left right out of his head believing he is being tortured to madness.

I think that the American people deserve at least as much as this for what he has done to this country.

by islander on July 30, 2023 4:58 am

I kinda think you nailed it Pondy !!!

by HatetheSwamp on July 30, 2023 5:08 am

Yeah, I mean everyone gets the American legal principle "innocent until proven guilty", but sometimes it's obvious before the trial, and sometimes even before there's been an indictment that the person is guilty. And this is one of those times. And I think if Hts and od were candid, they'd say they agree.

No, Donna.

Back in 016...effin po, and many SS progressives...were announcing confidently that Trump would soon be CONVICTED of his many crimes. ol pb actually bought into that at the time. Amazing, ain't?

The truth is that Trump's been effin EXONERATED of almost all of the 016 stuff. But, y'nes still come up with more.

Here's what pb 80% believes...the 20% is the documents brouhaha...:

WHEN APPEALS ARE EXHAUSTED IN ALL OF TRUMP’S INEVITABLE CONVICTIONS AT THE HANDS OF BIASED PROSECUTORS...

...HE'LL BE FOUND NOT GUILTY.

Trump's guilt ain't obvious to me...at all! What's obvious to me is Swampbound Trump hate.

BTW, Alan Dershowitz says things virtually identical to pb's take.

Your interpretation ain't as mainstream as you imagine.

by Donna on July 30, 2023 7:06 am

What about President Biden? Do you think he's guilty of some crime related to his son Hunter?

by Ponderer on July 30, 2023 7:14 am

"Trump's guilt ain't obvious to me...at all!" -Hate, defending his Golden God

Not even in the document cases? Wow.

I love how sometimes you present clear and concise proof that you haven't been following the actual facts of any of the cases against your Magnificent Mango Messiah at all. You're just swallowing whatever flaming bullshit is poured down your ravenous gullet by every bullshit right wing propaganda mill who will tell you what you want to hear.

And I like how when it's a Democrat who is suspected of anything untoward, you're right there with the pitchfork and torches crowd declaring them guilty of heinous illegal atrocities that are likely total bullshit and wanting them "Locked up" in prison without even getting a trial. Actual evidence means nothing to you then and you don't need it anyway.

And you say that I am the one who would be first to join a lynch mob.

But please... keep on defending Trump like you always do, Bill. Just like you're doing now. Because the more you defend him like this, the more hysterical your protestations that you never defend him become.

"WHEN APPEALS ARE EXHAUSTED IN ALL OF TRUMP’S INEVITABLE CONVICTIONS AT THE HANDS OF BIASED PROSECUTORS...

...HE'LL BE FOUND NOT GUILTY. " -Hate

Whoa! I think that may be your very first "ALL CAPS" defense of Trump in here! His impending indictments and convictions for the crimes he's committed must really be getting to you. And who could blame you? No cult member likes seeing their cult's leader being held to account for his crimes against humanity.

Well... his crimes against American humanity anyways.

And by the way, prosecutors are supposed to be biased against criminals. That's kinda how the legal system works. Criminals commit crimes and prosecutors prosecute them for their crimes.

Geez. You really don't pay any attention to much, do you.

by HatetheSwamp on July 30, 2023 7:39 am

Not even in the document cases? Wow.

As I've noted. I don't follow "Rachel" closely and I don't watch Fox anymore. So, if you know of an effin conviction?, fill me in.

And I like how when it's a Democrat who is suspected of anything untoward, you're right there with the pitchfork and torches crowd declaring them guilty of heinous illegal atrocities that are likely total bullshit and wanting them "Locked up" in prison without even getting a trial.

Really? Examples? C'mon man. Gimme a break!

Whoa! I think that may be your very first "ALL CAPS" defense of Trump in here!

How's that an effin defense?

by oldedude on July 30, 2023 9:32 am
Welcome to the prison of two ideas!

And in this case, they're saying that if one is guilty, the other (by default) must be innocent. I never really understood that. The two are completely separate, but that's what they're telling everyone by their "argument."

"You're accusing our pedophile of this but look what trumpster did!" That's what my kids did when they were five.

by islander on July 30, 2023 11:58 am

OD wrote: And in this case, they're saying that if one is guilty, the other (by default) must be innocent. I never really understood that. The two are completely separate, but that's what they're telling everyone by their "argument."

"You're accusing our pedophile of this but look what trumpster did!" That's what my kids did when they were five.

It’s not that at all. It’s the hypocrisy of preaching that we must assume someone is innocent until proven guilty, while at the same time believing and trying to convince others that someone else who has not been proven guilty...is, indeed, guilty.   

Insert anyone’s name you want into the equation but in this case it’s Trump who the hypocrites say we must believe is innocent until proven guilty while at the same time claiming Biden is guilty while never having been proven guilty.

What the hypocrites forget is that, except in a court of law, we have every right to assume someone is guilty before the person has been proven guilty. In a court of law, it’s the judge and jury who must assume innocence until proven guilty.

The irony of the hypocrite’s position is that Trump has already been proven guilty of crimes while Biden has never been proven guilty of committing any crimes whatsoever.

by oldedude on July 30, 2023 12:10 pm
Isle- It’s the hypocrisy of preaching that we must assume someone is innocent until proven guilty, while at the same time believing and trying to convince others that someone else who has not been proven guilty...is, indeed, guilty.

With that statement, I'm assuming you've see ALL the evidence on both sides and met with their legal teams? You've also spoke with them regarding their legal standing and how they intend to pursue each item. I assume then, you know the qualifiers and predicate acts for each charge and how both parties are pursuing the charges.

If that does not apply to you, you(et.al) have zero standing.

Simply put, you (y'all) desire a full vacating of the basic premise of our constitution and bill of rights to feed your ego. Just for one side alone.

by islander on July 30, 2023 12:45 pm

OD writes: With that statement, I'm assuming you've see ALL the evidence on both sides and met with their legal teams?

Except as a judge or juror in a trial, I don't need to anymore than you'd need to in order for you to assume Joe is a pedophile. Neither of us is violating the Constitution.

by Ponderer on July 30, 2023 12:50 pm

Hts: Okay I'll ask again. What about President Biden? Do you think he's guilty of some crime related to his son Hunter?

by Donna on July 30, 2023 12:56 pm

Mine ^

by oldedude on July 30, 2023 2:52 pm
isle- Except as a judge or juror in a trial, I don't need to anymore than you'd need to in order for you to assume Joe is a pedophile. Neither of us is violating the Constitution.

Joe's pedophilia was in a diary of his daughter. She wrote about it several times there and that "it creeped me out." There were over 100 pages of handwritten text by President Joe Biden’s daughter Ashley Biden seemingly confirm that the two showered together well past Ashley reaching the age of reason.

msn.com

by Donna on July 30, 2023 3:37 pm

Verdict: Unproven

Statements from a diary published on a dubious website — which themselves have been taken out of context — allegedly came from a misplaced diary written by Ashley Biden and later sold to the right-wing sting operation Project Veritas, whose founder said their authenticity couldn't be confirmed...

Project Veritas, court testimony indicates, paid $40,000 for this alleged diary. As reported by The Associated Press in August 2022, the document had come into the possession of two individuals after one moved into an apartment previously occupied by Ashley Biden:

Ashley Biden was moving out of a friend's Delray Beach home in spring 2020 when she stored the diary, tax records, a digital device with family photos, a cellphone and other items there, prosecutors said in a court filing.

They said [Aimee] Harris then moved into the same room, found the items and got in touch with [Robert] Kurlander, who enthused in a text message that he would help her make a "ton of money" from selling it, adding an expletive before "ton."

The above-mentioned Harris and Kurlander pleaded guilty to conspiracy to transport stolen property across state lines in their sale of the document to Project Veritas. According to PV founder James O'Keefe in August 2022, his organization could not confirm the diary received belonged to Ashley Biden.

snopes.com

by oldedude on July 30, 2023 4:29 pm
You stopped half-way through. The diary (and my quotes) have been verified in the diary. The two that stole the diary Plead guilty and were imprisoned after having been shown the diary was in fact hers.

Two people plead guilty in theft of diary of Ashley Biden, daughter of president

Two people pleaded guilty in federal court in New York in connection with the theft and sale of the diary and other items belonging to Ashley Biden, the daughter of President Joe Biden. The defendants conspired to steal items from Florida and transport them over state lines in 2020 when Ashley’s father was the Democratic nominee for the White House.

The duo shopped the diary to the campaign of then-President Donald Trump, which told them to take it to the FBI, court records show.

So the trumpster actually did something right. He didn't buy the document (which he could have definitely used for political gain).
cnbc.com

by HatetheSwamp on July 31, 2023 5:17 am

Hts: Okay I'll ask again. What about President Biden? Do you think he's guilty of some crime related to his son Hunter?

If what even effin purpleGOPs e.g., Nancy Mace claim they have evidence of is true, there's serious there there. We'll see.

But, pb's take is that Joe's real vulnerability now is impeachment.

by Curt_Anderson on July 31, 2023 5:54 am
What is purple about Nancy Mace? Mace votes with her party’s lunatic fringe—Matt Gaetz, Andy Biggs, Ken Buck, et cetera. Anyway, a “claim” of having evidence is not evidence.

by HatetheSwamp on July 31, 2023 5:56 am

Yeah. That's like Indy! sayin NEWSWEEK's right-wing.

by Donna on July 31, 2023 6:36 am

od - from the cnbc piece:

"Project Veritas CEO James O’Keefe, in a statement issued at that time, said that the organization had been approached by people offering it the Biden diary. But O’Keefe said the group decided not to publish the contents of the diary, and later turned it over to law enforcement when Ashley’s lawyer refused to accept it.

“At the end of the day, we made the ethical decision that because, in part, we could not determine if the diary was real, if the diary in fact belonged to Ashley Biden, or if the contents of the diary occurred, we could not publish the diary and any part thereof,” O’Keefe said at the time."

by Donna on July 31, 2023 11:34 am

So od, if you want to speculate about the diary, that's fine. We all speculate. And maybe your speculation is right. But at this point, I'm agnostic.

by oldedude on July 31, 2023 12:01 pm
There MUST be a victim in a theft. Who do you think the victim was? It was agreed in the court it was theft, and used for private gain. Thusly, prison. So "at the time" of your report.

What would be the charges against them if it didn't have an owner? Lying to someone to get money?

Court documents don’t specifically identify Ashley Biden as the owner of the stolen diary, but NBC News has previously confirmed the investigation into Project Veritas and the theft of the diary. The stolen items are identified in court papers as the “personal belongings of an immediate family member of a then-former government official who was a candidate for national political office.” So Ashley can't be called as a witness.

I would love to live in your world of unicorns and rainbows. Without a care that the world will always come out to be sunshine and lollypops, rainbows everywhere.

by Donna on July 31, 2023 1:02 pm

Unicorns and fairies aside, whatever that meant, there's no assurance that what your sources claim was written into the diary was written by Ashley Biden.

by Donna on July 31, 2023 1:04 pm

Excuse me, rainbows, not fairies. Whatever.

by oldedude on July 31, 2023 7:49 pm
It was a semi-quote from Leslie Gore-
Sunshine, lollipops and rainbows
Everything that's wonderful is what I feel
When we're together
Brighter than a lucky penny
When you're here the raindrops disappears, dear
And I feel so fine
Just to know that you are mine

question though. Are your Faires Celtic? or English/ Scandinavian?

by Ponderer on August 1, 2023 7:41 am

"Not even in the document cases? Wow.

As I've noted. I don't follow "Rachel" closely and I don't watch Fox anymore. So, if you know of an effin conviction?, fill me in." -Hate

No one here has ever said that Trump has been convicted of anything yet. What straw man bullshit.

The document cases have been pretty much the biggest news item on all the main networks for some time now, with new revelations happening daily. Of all the indictments that Trump will receive, the document cases are by far the most slam dunk against him in terms of evidence. I am rather amazed that you don't know anything about it. But then again, I'm not.

So... I suppose that if you never follow any coverage of the federal crimes that your Mango Messiah has committed and you steadfastly remain intentionally oblivious to them, they never happened and he's innocent. Is that how your brain is working here Bill...?

by Indy! on August 1, 2023 10:56 am

Peebs - why do you say you "don't watch" Fox anymore, yet apparently you "monitor" it (which would fall under the "watch it" category)? I get the feeling this is the same reasoning GOPers like OD use when they claim they don't like Trump yet everybody knows they voted for him.

by HatetheSwamp on August 1, 2023 2:06 pm

pb doesn't watch Fox News. In fact, he's not watching it at this very moment.
His boycott doesn't extend to Fox Business.

Also, he'll note YouTube videos that originate from Fox News and, occasionally, watch one or two.

by Indy! on August 1, 2023 3:16 pm

So you're watching Fox Business which is basically the same idea except the talk a little business in between all the other wingnutty stuff and you watch Fox News on youtube which is... watching Fox News. So - bottom line - you're still watching Fox.

by oldedude on August 1, 2023 6:58 pm
Lead- he's a troll, just bypass his BS.

by Indy! on August 1, 2023 9:17 pm

I'm the Truth Troll - bringing reality to people who need to hear it. 😘

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