By Donna July 13, 2023 3:21 pm Category: Science & Nature (0.0 from 0 votes) Rules of the Post Write A New Article How To Post Here Rate this article (5=best, 0=poor)

Those who've been scoffing at global warming should realize now how foolish they've been. See the chart below. That's a large part of what's causing record heat worldwide. The heat has become so unbearable in places like Iraq that it's almost unlivable now.

We're in trouble, and it isn't getting better, in fact it's getting worse and worse. And IMO, nothing we do about it is going to slow it down because the positive feedback loops I've been harping on for well over a decade are by definition self-perpetuating and on automatic.

The rate of increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide, which acts as an insulator of heat, is also continuing to rise despite decades of cutting back on burning fossil fuels into the atmosphere.

Also,

Florida Insurance Crisis Explained: Why Multiple Insurers Are Leaving State

Farmers Insurance has become the latest insurance company to pull out of Florida, despite repeated efforts by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis and the state legislature to shore up the volatile market.

On Tuesday Farmers informed the state that it is discontinuing new coverage of auto, home and umbrella policies, a move that will reportedly affect 100,000 policies.

"This business decision was necessary to effectively manage risk exposure," Farmers spokesman Trevor Chapman said in a statement to CBS Miami...

The company is the fourth major insurer to leave the Florida market in the past year, with most citing the risk from hurricanes.

And it's the latest sign that extreme weather is threatening the nation's insurance market, with risks for companies growing as climate change increases the strength of hurricanes and the intensity of storms. At least six insurance companies went insolvent in Florida last year, according to The Associated Press.

***

We are in deep shit.

Cited and related links:

1. newsweek.com

Comments Start Below

by Donna on July 13, 2023 3:26 pm Sorry that the pic didn't work. Try the link below instead. climatereanalyzer.org by Donna on July 13, 2023 3:50 pm Ocean temperatures are off the charts, and El Niño is only partly to blame ... He and other researchers said there are several factors that may be contributing to the off-the-charts warming, which is occurring alongside other climate woes including record-shattering wildfires in Canada, rapidly declining sea ice in Antarctica and unusually warm temperatures in many parts of the world, not including Southern California... “The North Atlantic is record-shatteringly warm right now,” Swain said during a briefing Monday. “There has never been any day in observed history where the entire North Atlantic has been nearly as warm as it is right now, at any time of year.” And it’s not just the Atlantic, as global sea surface temperatures are also climbing to new highs, NOAA data show. Such warming events can have considerable consequences, including triggering algal blooms, bleaching coral and negatively affecting fisheries and other ecosystems, Johnson said. Marine heat waves can also provide more energy for tropical cyclones and more moisture for atmospheric rivers and flooding events. And a warmer ocean tends to expand, which can lead to sea level rise along with melting ice sheets. “This is part of a long-term trend,” Johnson said. “If greenhouse gases continue to accumulate in the atmosphere, we’re going to continue to break records in terms of global average temperatures — whether it be sea surface temperature, or sea and land, or land alone. I think it’s having big impacts, and it’s something that we have to pay attention to.” Meanwhile, the World Meteorological Organization predicts that at least one of the next five years — and the five-year period as a whole — will be the Earth’s warmest on record due to global warming and El Niño. “The long-term trend is not going to stop, and we are stair-stepping up our way to much warmer oceans and a much warmer climate, and there still hasn’t been a great deal of momentum away from that,” he said. “We’re still moving in a pretty alarming direction, overall, when it comes to warming.” latimes.com by Indy! on July 13, 2023 9:23 pm I wonder what they mean by "six insurance companies" going insolvent. Are they talking about agents or big companies like AllState? I haven't heard anything and nobody I know is complaining about not being able to get insurance. Also - why did you leave out this part... And Farmers recently announced that it will limit writing new home policies in California, citing wildfire risks and high costs. That move follows Allstate and State Farm, which also said they will not issue new home insurance policies in the state. Or this part. This is what I've been saying about DeSantis - he's a paper tiger like Jeb Bush. He made a lot of noise, but he actually did not accomplish much - nor inflict anywhere near the amount of damage on the state that the national "news" likes to pretend... Critics have said DeSantis, who is seeking the Republican nomination for president, should have done more to make housing and insurance affordable in his state rather than focusing on "culture war" issues. by Donna on July 14, 2023 9:13 am I'm glad you posted those parts of the article, Indy. The parts I posted were to give y'all a taste of its content. More on the the hellacious heat the northern hemisphere is experiencing right now at the piece below. Enjoy your life now, because this crisis isn't going away, ever... well, maybe after civilization collapses. IMO, because I immersed myself in the science well over a decade ago, I can see that either our government nor our media have been honest about the limits of our ability, meaning the lack of political will, which means corporate will, to do what it really takes to get this under control. Now I fear it's too late... because of those positive feedback loops the talking heads on TV never mention, which is the crux of why we're screwed. I'm guessing that they don't want to foment mass panic. nytimes.com by Indy! on July 14, 2023 9:53 am When it comes to climate change, I feel bad for my nieces and nephews - but glad I never had children. We are headed for a mass extinction event of biblical proportions. I just hope it happens after I'm gone. by islander on July 15, 2023 7:33 am Donna~ Here in Mid Coast Maine we’ve been having a very cool and showery summer so far. Daytime highs more or less staying in the 60’s and low 70’s F however our nights have been uniformly staying above average by a few degrees. We’ve been stuck in this weather pattern (I’m not complaining) for the past few of months while the rest of the country seems to be having bouts of extreme heat. However despite this local weather pattern the Gulf of Maine continues to rapidly heat up and I suspect that the warmer water is keeping us from cooling off as much at night. I also wonder how the warmer sea surface temps will impact our weather this winter. "Highlights from Another Remarkably Warm Year With an annual average sea surface temperature (SST) of 53.66°F — more than 3.72°F above the long-term (1982 – 2011) average — the Gulf of Maine experienced its second-warmest year on record in 2022. This year fell short of the previous warmest year on record — 2021 — by 0.43°F, but was still record-breaking in a number of regards. In nine of the twelve months this year, average monthly SST was within the top three warmest among all years on record. The most extreme temperatures in 2022 occurred in November and December, each setting new records for highest monthly average SST in the Gulf of Maine". See link~ gmri.org by Donna on July 16, 2023 2:24 pm The northern latitude, especially in Greenland have been warming at a more alarming rate than the rest of the planet. The warming of the Atlantic Ocean could ironically cause Europe to become permanently colder, though. I read about this years ago. Can't remember the details, but from my recollection it has to do with the northern Atlantic's colder waters interacting with the warmer waters from the tropics creating a sort of "conveyor belt" that circulates the warmer currents to the north which in turn warms the air in Europe. The concern is if the conveyor belt shuts down, it might create a colder climate throughout northern Europe. All of the dire predictions by climatologists since around the 90s are. coming true. If anything, the scientific consensus has been conservative. No one likes hearing about this, which is why whenever I post on it, whether it be here or FB, it falls off the front page quickly or it doesn't receive many likes, whichever applies. by Donna on July 16, 2023 3:10 pm I don't know if the bar graph will show here. If not, go to the website below. The graphs are showing that temperatures in Maine have been steadily increasing over time. statesummaries.ncics.org by Donna on July 16, 2023 3:24 pm Good, it worked. From FOURTH NATIONAL CLIMATE ASSESSMENT: Rising water temperatures, ocean acidification, retreating arctic sea ice, sea level rise, high-tide flooding, coastal erosion, higher storm surge, and heavier precipitation events threaten our oceans and coasts. These effects are projected to continue, putting ocean and marine species at risk, decreasing the productivity of certain fisheries, and threatening communities that rely on marine ecosystems for livelihoods and recreation, with particular impacts on fishing communities in Hawai‘i and the U.S.-Affiliated Pacific Islands, the U.S. Caribbean, and the Gulf of Mexico. Lasting damage to coastal property and infrastructure driven by sea level rise and storm surge is expected to lead to financial losses for individuals, businesses, and communities, with the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts facing above-average risks. Impacts on coastal energy and transportation infrastructure driven by sea level rise and storm surge have the potential for cascading costs and disruptions across the country. Even if significant emissions reductions occur, many of the effects from sea level rise over this century—and particularly through mid-century—are already locked in due to historical emissions,[IOW positive feedeback loops - Donna] and many communities are already dealing with the consequences. Actions to plan for and adapt to more frequent, widespread, and severe coastal flooding, such as shoreline protection and conservation of coastal ecosystems, would decrease direct losses and cascading impacts on other sectors and parts of the country. More than half of the damages to coastal property are estimated to be avoidable through well-timed adaptation measures. Substantial and sustained reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions would also significantly reduce projected risks to fisheries and communities that rely on them. nca2018.globalchange.gov by Curt_Anderson on July 16, 2023 5:04 pm Donna, SelectSmart.com is 25 years old. This and its predecessor forum have been around almost that long. We've been discussing Global Warming for a long time here. During that time the world has made positive steps in the direction of reducing greenhouse gases. Cars and trucks are more than ten miles to the gallon fuel efficient today than they were in 2000. See link. Electric cars are a lot more common. Buildings are more energy efficient in their heating and cooling. We certainly are energy efficient than our grandparents. It's rather disheartening that environmental improvements don't result in lowered temperatures. en.wikipedia.org by Donna on July 16, 2023 5:20 pm Yes, it is. But when you think about it, it makes sense that 20 or 30 years of cutting back on the burning of carbon into our atmosphere wouldn't have a measurable effect on 150 years of intense burning of carbon. The positive feedback loops are winning. I don't think there's a whole helluva lot we can do about that at this point, but we've got to at least try. by Indy! on July 16, 2023 9:15 pm Because we're not doing nearly enough, Curt. Joe Biden's "climate" bill you keep touting is the perfect example - more drilling, more help for the fossil fuel industry with a bit of patronizing genuflecting to environmental action. by HatetheSwamp on July 17, 2023 3:48 am It's rather disheartening that environmental improvements don't result in lowered temperatures. One of the anti Green New Deal GOPs said recently, I think it was one of the presidential candidates, I think that it was during one of the Tucker Carlson interviews, that China is opening a new coal mine every week. Electric cars require batteries made of minerals that have to be mined. They use electricity that comes from electric plants, often powered by coal. Honestly, I don't think that electric cars will help much...with this technology. I'm happy to drive my Camry hybrid which gets, comfortably 50+ mpg, to save on Biden's high gas prices. But, it has a battery and I doubt will be a net contributor to a clean environment. ***** My guess is that we'll solve the global warming problem, not by reducing emissions... ...but by encouraging the development of technologies that will clean air...and water, too... ...a sort of desalination approach. by oldedude on July 17, 2023 4:58 am And China has no intention or reason to stop. Their (and India's) production of CO2 production is on producing electricity. They are using 100 year old technology and happy to do so. Granted, the US's emissions is high, as well as the EU's. And that is getting people places. Does it need to be updated? Yes. And we've also shown the technology to mass produce electric transportation is evasive for the consumer. Basically, it sucks to have a free, mobile civilization that travels. What the US could do better? Better rail systems that are electric to start. This is already a technology that can be used. The "infrastructure bills" have always diverted from this. My guess is the rail barons are just as powerful as they were in the late 19th century. That includes getting goods cheaper and faster than by tractor/trailers. The issue with this is that trains can't go through major cities because of the rampant theft of entire cars of goods while traveling. by HatetheSwamp on July 17, 2023 5:06 am OD, My take on our Green New Deal is that it's a thinly veiled conspiracy to elevate the power of Big Brother and to crush Bill of Rights individual liberty for all Americans. Much of the opposition to the Green New Deal is from people who seriously want clear air but don't want to adopt a fascist government to achieve it. by Donna on July 17, 2023 8:13 am Halting or reversing global warming, if it were ever possible, would have required implementing drastic measures in a coordinated global effort as soon as the scientific consensus identified the problem... which of course was never going to happen. We have politicians in the US, all Republican, who still don't believe it's happening! God help us all. by Curt_Anderson on July 17, 2023 8:23 am "Because we're not doing nearly enough, Curt." --OD By that I presume you mean others doing things that don't involve any personal sacrifice or cost to you. What are YOU doing that is enough for a single individual? Do you no longer use fossil fuels? Did you stop eating red meat? Did you plant a tree? Have you made any helpful lifestyle changes to reduce your carbon footprint? onetreeplanted.org by oldedude on July 17, 2023 8:55 am "Because we're not doing nearly enough, Curt." --OD I don't see where I said that. It may be out of context or "something." I have complete solar on my house. I am net negative on my power by about 12% (that's a little confusing, but it means I sell back 12% more than what we use). I have planted 6 trees since moving here. We have upgraded windows and coverings in our house. We spent a phenomenal amount on our siding to finish our workshop. It's a concrete/fibreglass mix that is set for Class 5 'canes, and is extremely eco friendly. We don't use nitrogen fertilizer on our lawn, and when we use fertilizer (on the vegetable/ herb gardens, fruit trees, instead of once per quarter, we apply 1/4 the amount every month, creating less "spillage" into the underground river system here. So "assuming" that I hate the environment is a stupid assumption on your part. And actually pretty offensive. As I've said several times before, I was doing eco stuff since the 1970's, and have stayed with it. Even in Germany, we would pick up trash after a volksmarsch to keep their trails green. I've always believed you always leave things nicer then when you found them. by Curt_Anderson on July 17, 2023 9:01 am Sorry, OD, I meant to say Indy. by HatetheSwamp on July 17, 2023 9:50 am We have politicians in the US, all Republican, who still don't believe it's happening! No doubt. So, since you seem to know, who? God help us all. Ah. A progressive's prayer. God save the Queen, man! by HatetheSwamp on July 17, 2023 9:55 am I have complete solar on my house. I am net negative on my power by about 12% (that's a little confusing, but it means I sell back 12% more than what we use). I have planted 6 trees since moving here. Way to go, OD! Woke, white, limousine lib progressives love to whine and preach. Libertarians walk the talk. I was about to post that I'll put our carbon footprint up against anyone's here. Not n'more. by islander on July 18, 2023 4:24 am Full solar here with battery bank back up and low E glass windows throughout. Eleven raised bed gardens for vegetables, fruit trees, and high efficiency heat pump for both heat and AC. Drive a hybrid Prius which averages 48 to 52 MPG. Wife and I are old codgers who take care of all the maintenance on the house, yard, and gardens ourselves. That’s how we WOKE folks roll ! by HatetheSwamp on July 18, 2023 4:58 am Good for you, isle. Have you seen John Kerry's House Committee testimony from last week where he's absolutely lambasted for his environmental hypocrisy. Can you say arrogant? My sense is that he's more typical of woke people than are you. See video View Video by islander on July 18, 2023 6:02 am John Kerry is rich. Rich people, no matter what their political persuasion, don't live like the rest of us. by HatetheSwamp on July 18, 2023 6:12 am That's classist bigotry, isle. You're truly a commie. by islander on July 18, 2023 6:22 am Yup. That’s what “they” Maga cultists, call us...but we proudly call ourselves WOKE. This is how we WOKE folks live...Yours truly out there picking pole beans for dinner. Beans that we planted. by oldedude on July 18, 2023 7:54 am isle- good job on your stuff. We don't have the prius, pretty much the same specs on the solar, and we're working on the garden beds. We don't have near what you have, and it sounds like you're far more organized than we are right now. We do have a fairly large bed of lemongrass and turmeric. Also a lot of other medicinal herbs (no weed), some of which are on our fences (wild rose, cats claw, etc). In one of the shaded areas I have ginger growing also. And we also do our own maintenance on the land. What we can't do, we get help from the son, and in a couple of years, the grandson. Our intent is for one of the grandchildren to take over the land when they start their own families. So it sounds like you're doing really good things and enjoying yourselves. by Donna on July 18, 2023 8:55 am The world is in the grips of a dangerous heat wave that has sent temperatures skyrocketing to deadly levels throughout Asia, Europe and the Americas. Unless urgent action is taken to reduce carbon emissions, the United Nations says, Earth could pass a temperature threshold in the next decade when climate disasters are too extreme to adapt to. We speak with longtime climate journalist Jeff Goodell, author of the new book, The Heat Will Kill You First: Life and Death on a Scorched Planet, about how the climate crisis is raising temperatures, the toll such heat can have on the human body, and how “heat is the primary driver for this climate transformation we are undergoing right now,” fueling natural disasters such as floods, wildfires and more. democracynow.org by HatetheSwamp on July 18, 2023 9:06 am As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger when they were surrounded by Injuns about to attack, "What you mean, 'WE,' white man!!!!!?" If global warming is related to human activity, WE can do everything possible. The problem is that the Doddering Old Fool keeps sending members of his administration over to China to give blow jobs to Xi. by Donna on July 18, 2023 9:24 am Texas governor signs bill rescinding water breaks as deadly heat grips state Measure will nullify local ordinances that provide workers protection from devastating, triple-digit temperatures How is that not sociopathy? theguardian.com by HatetheSwamp on July 18, 2023 9:34 am ...Republican lawmakers pushing the new law have said it eliminates a “hodgepodge of onerous and burdensome regulations” that Texas businesses face. The effort aims to prevent cities and counties from enacting progressive policies that counter the state Republican supermajority’s aims. This is what can happen when progressives Big Brother businesses to the point of extinction. My guess is that the article ain't reporting fairly. pb stopped believing the lib media a looooooooong time ago. Perhaps, you should consider following his example. BTW, this is why I call all of your media, Rachel. It is. by Indy! on July 18, 2023 9:44 am Wow. You guys have no idea who I am. by Curt_Anderson on July 17, 2023 8:23 am "Because we're not doing nearly enough, Curt." --OD By that I presume you mean others doing things that don't involve any personal sacrifice or cost to you. What are YOU doing that is enough for a single individual? Do you no longer use fossil fuels? Did you stop eating red meat? Did you plant a tree? Have you made any helpful lifestyle changes to reduce your carbon footprint? Guaranteed I use less fossil fuels than anyone else on this board. I work from home. I can count on one finger the number of times I've driven my car this week - about 2 miles to the grocery store and back. I am not 100% meatless - but I quit eating red meat except for once or twice a month about 20 years ago. I have not personally planted trees (I live in a condo - it's against the rules) - however I have contributed 1000s of dollars to organizations that do over the years. I recycle everything I can. But the biggest thing I did to save the planet? I DON'T HAVE ANY KIDS. My footprint ends with me - yours and everyone else with kids will be destroying the planet for centuries down the road. I am the MOST carbon neutral person on this board. by Indy! on July 18, 2023 9:51 am OD - Wrong on China. It is true they are still building coal plants at an alarming rate. However, they are also the global leaders in renewable energy. They have outpaced their own promises to create renewable power. I know it's the favorite GOP cop-out to claim "I'll worry about climate change when China does" (which is about as stupid, selfish and self-defeating as it can possibly get) - but the reality is China is kicking everyone's ass when it comes to renewables. Even the rightwing media understands this... On its current trajectory, Hemsley said that Beijing is on track to reach 1,800 gigawatts of total renewables by 2030. That would be 50% higher than Chinese President Xi Jinping’s target of 1,200 gigawatts of total renewables by the end of the decade. “The implications of that being [that] they will outperform their Nationally Determined Contribution, and they are likely to peak emissions way before 2030, some say around 2025 [or] 2026,” Hemsley said, describing this as “really positive news.” google.com by Donna on July 18, 2023 11:18 am Hts: Allowing physical laborers a 10- minute water break very 4 hours is a "burdensome regulation"? I think it's barbaric. I also think it's racist, because 6 out of 10 physical laborers in Tejas are Brown and probably undocumented. And that's not counting the Black laborers. I think the Republican legislators in Tejas should come out of the closet and wear their Klan get-ups to work. Then at least they'd be honest. by islander on July 18, 2023 11:41 am OD wrote "good job on your stuff",/b> Thanks OD !! 👍 I don't have to tell you that what we do requires a bit of work, especially as we begin to get a little older. But it's a good kind of work for both the body and the mind. I'm eternally grateful that after all these years my wife and I are still able to get out there and work together as a team, and at the end of the day we can literally enjoy the fruits of our labor !! by HatetheSwamp on July 18, 2023 11:43 am Donna. Show me where Texas is making water breaks effin ILLEGAL. This is puuuuure silliness. by Donna on July 18, 2023 11:55 am Why is Texas law leaving it up to the employers to provide water breaks for laborers? I'll say because the Texas Republican-led legislature is comprised of bigoted sociopaths. What's your theory? by HatetheSwamp on July 18, 2023 12:33 pm Why is Texas law leaving it up to the employers to provide water breaks for laborers? C'mon man. Gimme a Big Brother break! Do you understand how ludicrous your question is!!!!!? MAKE ORWELL FICTION FICTION rockatee.com by oldedude on July 18, 2023 1:32 pm Isle- this year (maybe next) we'll start picking our own pineapple! We also have the ability to make our own Tiquila, but doubt if that will happen. Yes, it's soooo cool! The people around us do the same, so we get a lot of produce throughout the year. Our daughter in law did TWO zucchini plants... so there were a lot of "creative recipes! by Ponderer on July 18, 2023 3:06 pm Hts - So you're fine with shit-canning all labor laws and allowing companies to do whatever the hell they want to workers? by Donna on July 18, 2023 3:07 pm Mine ^ by HatetheSwamp on July 18, 2023 3:16 pm Hts - So you're fine with shit-canning all labor laws... All? No. Of course not. As I said, I don't trust the reporting of this story. by Donna on July 18, 2023 3:34 pm I didn't think so. I disgree with you a lot, but I don't think you're that insensitive. I looked at the layperson's version of the bill (link at bottom) and found this: The bill would not eliminate protections for workers because labor standards, including mandated rest breaks, are strongly enforced at the federal level by OSHA. There are also federal protections against anti-LGBT discrimination in employment and housing, and local governments are expressly authorized to prohibit employment discrimination by the state Labor Code. Okay, sounds good. But then further down there's this: Many local efforts to protect vulnerable community members, including regulations and initiatives related to public health and safety, affordable housing, and poverty alleviation could be undermined by the bill’s preemptions. Although the bill contains an exemption for local ordinances aimed at curbing predatory lending by credit access businesses, it would not allow cities without similar ordinances to pass them, and would prevent existing ordinances from being updated to effectively address the evolution of predatory lending entities. The bill also could eliminate local requirements intended to ensure fair and humane working conditions, such as mandated rest and water breaks for construction workers. Local anti- discrimination ordinances that protect the LGBT community in employment and housing access could also be threatened. By waiving local governments’ liability immunity, the bill’s private cause of action could incentivize excessive and costly litigation. The cost of such lawsuits would impose a significant financial burden on city and county resources, which would ultimately pass to taxpayers. ???????? hro.house.texas.gov by Donna on July 18, 2023 6:02 pm Bumped up for Hts. by oldedude on July 18, 2023 9:54 pm You know slaves don't get "humane conditions," right? by Donna on July 19, 2023 11:08 am That goes without saying, od. Maybe you should notify the Texas House which wrote all that. by oldedude on July 19, 2023 1:32 pm So then why attack the film? That's actually why I posted this thread. The dimmycrat/sheeple media had a heyday trashing the film because Some media outlets have criticized the movie and its audience. For example, a Bloomberg writer who recently penned an article attacking Sound of Freedom and moviegoers attending the film was quickly exposed as a pro-pedophilia activist1. There’s plenty to be disturbed about when it comes to some media outlets’ dismissive — and damaging — reactions to the sleeper summer film hit “The Sound of Freedom.”2 Actor Jim Caviezel fired back after media criticism of his hit film “Sound of Freedom,” saying mainstream outlets have been unfair and are "quaking in their boots."3 But beyond warranted complaints over the unfairness and typical progressive media mumbo-jumbo, there’s a tragic component of the overt attempts to malign the movie as “QAnon-adjacent”"2 boundingintocomics.com washingtontimes.com foxnews.com by oldedude on July 19, 2023 1:47 pm Sorry, COMPLETELY WRONG THREAD. My bad. by Donna on July 23, 2023 5:46 pm Honest mistake - no problem. Back to climate change - Here's what's also in store for humanity. Actually it's already begun: Mass migrations northward from areas of the world that were already hot, which will cause increased political unrest in host countries; increase in famines and disease; more wars. All of those things are baked into the cake. They aren't really even predictions - they're inevitable and will continue indefinitely. All of which is why aliens are here. I'm dead serious. We've got to be the biggest show in this corner of the Milky Way. A very interesting time to be alive. by Donna on July 24, 2023 2:42 pm Heh, that's the kind of reaction I get on FB. I know it's depressing. by Indy! on July 24, 2023 3:51 pm Hotter than Dutch love out there today. by oldedude on July 24, 2023 4:03 pm Donna,That goes without saying, od. Maybe you should notify the Texas House which wrote all that. I agree. THAT's exactly why people are "paying forward" tickets to the movie. We've got to get this into everyday thought about how this affects us as individuals and a nation. If you folks go, wait until the last piece. There's a monologue that talks about this. Sorry it took me so long on this answer. It's been a month this week. by Donna on July 25, 2023 7:21 am No problem. This forum is a pastime, not a job. by islander on July 26, 2023 3:58 am "A vital system of ocean currents could collapse within a few decades if the world continues to pump out planet-heating pollution, scientists are warning – an event that would be catastrophic for global weather and “affect every person on the planet. A new study published Tuesday in the journal Nature, found that the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Current – of which the Gulf Stream is a part – could collapse around the middle of the century, or even as early as 2025." cnn.com by Donna on July 26, 2023 6:17 am You beat me to it, islander. I read a piece in the NY Times yesterday on that entitled "Warming Could Push the Atlantic Past a ‘Tipping Point’ This Century" It's about what I referred to as the Atlantic conveyor belt in earlier post. "The last time there was a major slowdown in the mighty network of ocean currents that shapes the climate around the North Atlantic, it seems to have plunged Europe into a deep cold for over a millennium. That was roughly 12,800 years ago, when not many people were around to experience it. But in recent decades, human-driven warming could be causing the currents to slow once more, and scientists have been working to determine whether and when they might undergo another great weakening, which would have ripple effects for weather patterns across a swath of the globe. A pair of researchers in Denmark this week put forth a bold answer: A sharp weakening of the currents, or even a shutdown, could be upon us by century’s end. It was a surprise even to the researchers that their analysis showed a potential collapse coming so soon, one of them, Susanne Ditlevsen, a professor of statistics at the University of Copenhagen, said in an interview. Climate scientists generally agree that the Atlantic circulation will decline this century, but there’s no consensus on whether it will stall out before 2100... In the Atlantic, researchers have been searching for harbingers of tipping-point-like change in a tangle of ocean currents that goes by an unlovely name: the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, or AMOC(pronounced “AY-mock”). These currents carry warm waters from the tropics through the Gulf Stream, past the southeastern United States, before bending toward northern Europe. When this water releases its heat into the air farther north, it becomes colder and denser, causing it to sink to the deep ocean and move back toward the Equator. This sinking effect, or “overturning,” allows the currents to transfer enormous amounts of heat around the planet, making them hugely influential for the climate around the Atlantic and beyond. As humans warm the atmosphere, however, the melting of the Greenland ice sheet is adding large amounts of fresh water to the North Atlantic, which could be disrupting the balance of heat and salinity that keeps the overturning moving. A patch of the Atlantic south of Greenland has cooled conspicuously in recent years, creating a “cold blob” that some scientists see as a sign that the system is slowing. Were the circulation to tip into a much weaker state, the effects on the climate would be far-reaching, though scientists are still examining their potential magnitude. Much of the Northern Hemisphere could cool. The coastlines of North America and Europe could see faster sea-level rise. Northern Europe could experience stormier winters, while the Sahel in Africa and the monsoon regions of Asia would most likely get less rain... ...They then used the mathematical properties of a tipping-point-like system to extrapolate from these trends. That led them to predict that the Atlantic circulation could collapse around midcentury, though it could potentially occur as soon as 2025 and as late as 2095... “It is very plausible that we’ve fallen off a cliff already and don’t know it,” Dr. Kilbourne said. “I fear, honestly, that by the time any of this is settled science, it’s way too late to act.”" nytimes.com by HatetheSwamp on July 26, 2023 6:26 am Libs: The first time I heard the forecast that life as we know it will end in ten years was in the 1980s. Is it any wonder that people with sense are cynical? by Donna on July 26, 2023 9:38 am You haven't been keeping up with the science. by islander on July 26, 2023 9:39 am Hate wrote: ”The first time I heard the forecast that life as we know it will end in ten years was in the 1980s. Is it any wonder that people with sense are cynical?” Are you one of those cynical people? I wouldn’t say people with real sense are cynical, I would say people with little knowledge of oceanography, climate, and basic meteorology are the ones who are most likely to be cynical about the reality of climate change and the problems and dangers we are going to be facing because of it. A lot of those people You call cybical get their information from the pseudo- scientific and “pop science” articles they read and/or listen to. but have no real knowledge about any of it... Is that you? I would love to know where you got your ideas about what scientists back in the 80’s, the real scientists and not authors writing sensationalized and distorted versions of what the real scientists are saying. It would be cool if you could give us the source of the information that has led you to believe scientists in the 80’s were saying that due to climate change, “life as we know it will end in ten years”. I remember well the predictions and descriptions of what real scientists back then were actually saying and the real scientists were right. “”Among climatologists, the link between climate change and weird weather is not controversial. The controversy comes mainly from political activists who for various reasons don‘t believe what scientists are telling us. That‘s not to say that climate scientists have everything figured out. For example, although there‘s understandable speculation about a link between global warming and tornadoes, many years of study are needed before scientists will be able to say whether climate change is affecting these terrible storms. A handful of studies have explored possible links between global warming and the convective thunderstorms that can spawn tornadoes. These studies suggest that, in parts of the U.S., rising temperatures could increase the number of days with conditions favorable to thunderstorm formation. Here‘s what we can say for certain: The weird weather of the future will bring devastating, life-threatening heat. The U.S. Global Change Research Program warns that by 2100, what we currently consider to be an extreme heat wave will be a normal summer, and ―extremely hot days will be 10°F warmer. Temperatures in parts of California, Arizona, Texas, and Florida are likely to be above 90°F for at least five months every year. And all of this terrible heat could make violent storms more likely.” * This was written 12 years ago and now we know precisely what they were talking about and what it feels like. edf.org by Donna on July 26, 2023 9:40 am Btw, back in the 80s, no scientists were saying that life as we know it will end in ten years. They still aren't saying that, and neither am I. by HatetheSwamp on July 26, 2023 10:38 am Are you one of those cynical people? I wouldn’t say people with real sense are cynical, I would say people with little knowledge of oceanography, climate, and basic meteorology are the ones who are most likely to be cynical about the reality of climate change and the problems and dangers we are going to be facing because of it. You are so effin sanctimonious, there, UNDERSTAND MAN. Baha baha. Right! If all people could only be as informed and enlightened as are you woke environmentalist wackos. What I understand is that the earth's temperature is rising but that you wackos are saying exactly what you were saying 40 effin years ago... ...IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY YOU'VE ALWAYS SAID IT...AND THAT YOUR WHINING AND PREACHING IS NO LONGER CONSIDERED EITHER TRUSTWORTHY OR BELIEVABLE... ...which is your fault. The planet will suffer because of environmentalists' either lies or errors... And. As they used to say on LAUGH IN, "That’s the truth!" by islander on July 26, 2023 12:41 pm Hate wrote: ”What I understand is that the earth's temperature is rising but that you wackos are saying exactly what you were saying 40 effin years ago...” I guess that’s your admission that that you were wrong and scientists were not saying in the 80s that life as we know it will end in ten years. Scientists then were telling you exactly what we see happening but you weren't listening to them, you were just blocking it out and listening to the imposters and snake oil salesmen out to make a buck. 40 years ago the climate change deniers were arguing that the world was not warming and the scientists who said so were full of it. I argued with the likes of you back then as well. But now it keeps getting harder and harder for you and yours to deny it. And like you, more and more of your ilk are now finally having to admit that it’s true, the planet is warming and causing “climate change” just like we said it would, and I can see how painful it is for you to have to admit it. Yes we have been warning you and trying to get you to understand what was happening and why it was happening...You are now seeing with your own eyes that the very thing we’d been telling you was going to happen...Is happening. No matter how hard you try you can’t blame anyone else for your own pigheadedness. That’s always been your own free choice. by HatetheSwamp on July 26, 2023 1:01 pm I guess that’s your admission that that you were wrong and scientists were not saying in the 80s that life as we know it will end in ten years. Huh Scientists saying it? Cokey Roberts was big on climate outrage. Ted Danson was too back in the day. They got a lot of attention. They were proved to be unbelievable and untrustworthy. I know Rush loved to quote some wacko actual scientist from the University of from East Anglia. The guy was a legitimate scientist... who effin lied about his data. But, isle, honestly. Are you unaware that there's a consistent history over the course of the last 40 years of climate activists making claims that proved false. All pb's saying is that it will be harder than ever for people...such as yourself...concerned with climate change...to win the hearts of people because of previous sky-is-falling claims in the past. westernstandard.news by HatetheSwamp on July 26, 2023 5:55 pm "MAGA Republicans Convene In Underground Lair To Turn Planet's Heat Dial Up Three More Notches" babylonbee.com by Donna on July 26, 2023 7:18 pm I've found that most people are in denial about the seriousness of climate change, probably because the truth is so horrifying. I actually tried to look at the Babylon Bee piece, but I wasn't able to because it's innundated with ads, including video ads which made my phone lock up. by islander on July 27, 2023 5:51 am Hate wrote: "All pb's saying is that it will be harder than ever for people...such as yourself...concerned with climate change...to win the hearts of people because of previous sky-is-falling claims in the past." We are already winning the hearts and minds of the American people, and the more people who want to know the truth and choose to take the time to study and understand the science behind climate change the better the chances we’re going to be able to successfully move in the right direction to repair the damage we have been doing to our planet. It’s something we have to do for the sake of our children and their children and all life on our planet...see link below You spent all your time listening to and believing the snake oil salesmen and imposters like Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson, etc, and others like them instead of listening to the scientific community which is why you are right now trying to convince yourself that your pigheadedness with regard to climate change is not your fault, rather, you try to put the fault on the scientific community and those of us who are trying to help you have a better understanding of climate change and to be able to see what we can do to help to slow it down...and hopefully even reverse it in the coming years. Let go of your hatred of us woke liberals and turn off the right wing talk shows, forget the celebrity news pundits and rags. Start reading a bit on climatology, meteorology, and the physics of global warming...Then you’ll be better prepared to distinguish pop-science and psuedo science and the real thing. Like I said, it’s about time for you to take responsibility for what you've been doing and stop trying to blame somebody else for the terrible judgement you your fellow Republicans have made with regard to climate change. pewresearch.org by islander on July 27, 2023 6:12 am Take a look at these photos Hate, I think (hopefully) you'll then be better able to understand the suffering that your side's pig headed approach to climate change is causing millions of Americans and people around the world. It's about time for you to get on board and actually start doing something constructive and maybe you can then help your people to better understand climate change and what is in store for humanity and our planet if we don't start doing all we can to try and rectify what we have done and are doing to our planet. cnn.com by HatetheSwamp on July 27, 2023 9:02 am isle, you closed-minded bigot. Check out thr Russell Brand interview of Tucker from.a few weeks back. The biggest shock for ol pb is that Tuck's a totally wacked out environmentalist. Surprising, ain't!!! But, really. Still, as Donna points out in the US House and Supreme Court opposes your proposed solutions for climate change. You ain't winnin hearts. Period. Because this is an issue settled based on belief, please understand. pb's on your side. Take a moment to compose yourself, buddy. What we disagree about is how to make a meaningful difference politically... ...and, with your BELIEF that global warming is created by human beings. Still. The planet is warming...and, to a degree that people alive after we're gone will have serious problems. by Ponderer on July 27, 2023 9:46 am CLIMATOLOGISTS: "See? The weather is becoming so much more violent and dramatic from global climate change, just as we told you it would!" MAGA REPUBLICANS LIKE HATE: "Nuh UH!!! You were WRONG! You said it would happen by the 2030's... And it's already happening and it's only 2023!!! So why should we believe you about anything?" 🙄 by islander on July 27, 2023 12:24 pm Hate wrote: ” Because this is an issue settled based on belief, please understand. pb's on your side.” No. You are not on my side. I doubt you even know what my side is. What we disagree about is how to make a meaningful difference politically...” You still seem to think our understanding of climate change is based on a difference in our political beliefs. It’s not. Climate change has nothing to do with my political beliefs. The reality of Climate change is a reality based on scientific facts. ”...and, with your BELIEF that global warming is created by human beings.” I don’t believe that global warming is caused by human beings. You see, this is why I told you need to let go of your hatred of us woke liberals, turn off the right wing talk shows, and forget the celebrity news pundits and rags. Start reading a bit on climatology, meteorology, and the physics of global warming...Then you’ll be better prepared to distinguish pop-science and psuedo science from the real thing. If you knew and understood more about climate change and global warming you’d know that we humans didn’t create it. Climate change is a naturally occurring phenomenon that happens over geological time (thousands of years). Over the past 2 billion years as the earth began to warm after after each of the five the ice ages. The global temperature rose a total of 4 to 7 degrees Celsius over about 5,000 years. That’s five thousand years ! Since the beginning of the industrial age (just a few hundred years ago), we started pumping CO2 into our atmosphere at rates that had never before been seen. Since then the earth has been warming at an accelerated rate that is unprecedented. THAT rapid acceleration is what we humans are responsible for. by HatetheSwamp on July 27, 2023 1:09 pm I doubt you even know what my side is. Touché, you wiley little devil. You still seem to think our understanding of climate change is based on a difference in our political beliefs. It’s not. Climate change has nothing to do with my political beliefs. Accomplishing anything to address the issue in this nation "of the people, by the people and for the people" requires laws. Ain't? Democratically passed laws. Since the beginning of the industrial age (just a few hundred years ago), we started pumping CO2 into our atmosphere at rates that had never before been seen. Oh. And humans have nuthin to do with that. Right. by islander on July 27, 2023 1:42 pm Isle wrote: 'Since the beginning of the industrial age (just a few hundred years ago), we started pumping CO2 into our atmosphere at rates that had never before been seen." Hate replied: "Oh. And humans have nuthin to do with that. Right." Wrong !! Your ignorance is displayed right there. Of course humans are responsible for "pumping CO2 into our atmosphere. Try to understand...As I said, humans didn't create Global warming. We are however responsible for the unprecedented rate of global warming that we have been seeing since we started pumping CO2 (a greenhouse gas) into our atmosphere. "From 1850 to 2019, 2,400 gigatons of CO2 were emitted by human activity." Do you know how much "one" gigaton is? It's 2.2 trillion lbs. climate.nasa.gov by HatetheSwamp on July 27, 2023 2:14 pm Wrong !! Your ignorance is displayed right there. Of course humans are responsible for "pumping CO2 into our atmosphere. Ouch. Apparently, you missed my sarcasm. You agreed with me. Ouch. Bad on you! Now, listen buddy. I know you're lapsed but, heck. Look up a priest. Try a "bless me father..." by islander on July 28, 2023 8:06 am Hate wrote: "Ouch. Apparently, you missed my sarcasm. You agreed with me. Ouch. Bad on you!" Your response was not sarcasm. It was what so many of your responses are, non-sequiturs ... Your response does not logically follow from anything I said. by Ponderer on July 28, 2023 8:14 am Isle, there eventually comes a time when you just gotta accept that Hate is a blithering imbecile and move on. Pretty sure this is one of those times. by HatetheSwamp on July 28, 2023 9:33 am Your response was not sarcasm. It was what so many of your responses are, non-sequiturs ... Ahhhhhhhhhhh. Good ol fashioned SS progressive SwampLover omniscience... presuming to tell me what I meant. Next to po, as Carly Simon sang, "Nobody does it better." by Indy! on July 29, 2023 1:16 pm I agree with Islander that the Rs are putting the brakes on climate - but so are the Ds. We have two parties (read: one) that are more concerned with profit than the environment. by Donna on July 29, 2023 1:27 pm You're right Indy, but there's a political Catch-22. If Biden stopped all drilling for oil and natural gas, prices for those things would skyrocket and it would increase the probability that he'd lose the election. by HatetheSwamp on July 30, 2023 6:30 am I agree with Islander that the Rs are putting the brakes on climate - but so are the Ds. As I've mentioned, I watched the whole Russell Brand podcast interview of Tucker. Tucker came across as a very seriously radical environmentalist who blames both GOPs and Dems for the mess the planet is in. It's because Tucker is a Swamphater. Not a bad thing! pb's bang on. If practically meaningful measures are going to be taken...IN TIME...the politics of the environment are going to have to change. Want another reason that pb...and Indy!, I think, too...HatetheSwamp? Bingo! How you people can continue to play those ridiculous and evil Swamp games, befuddles me! by Donna on August 5, 2023 6:57 am The Republican Party isn't the least bit interested in saving human civilization from climate change. From this morning's NY Times: During a summer of scorching heat that has broken records and forced Americans to confront the reality of climate change, conservatives are laying the groundwork for future Republican administration that would dismantle efforts to slow global warming. The move is part of a sweeping strategy dubbed Project 2025 that Paul Dans of the Heritage Foundation, the conservative think tank organizing the effort, has called a “battle plan” for the first 180 days of a future Republican presidency. The climate and energy provisions would be among the most severe swings away from current federal policies. The plan calls for shredding regulations to curb greenhouse gas pollution from cars, oil and gas wells and power plants, dismantling almost every clean energy program in the federal government and boosting the production of fossil fuels — the burning of which is the chief cause of planetary warming. nytimes.com by oldedude on August 5, 2023 7:10 am Because they want people to work, have jobs, and let technology catch up with need. WTF do we do with the EV batteries? Still a mystery. Or wind turbine parts? Neither of these can be recycled. It seems to me the ecofascists haven't thought the problem through. The references for coal are almost 50 years old right now. They're not using the data that's in force right now. Technology hasn't caught up with want/ need yet. by HatetheSwamp on August 5, 2023 7:41 am The Republican Party isn't the least bit interested in saving human civilization from climate change. The GOP is the home of openness and inclusion, acceptance, diversity, tolerance and...FREETHINKING! by HatetheSwamp on August 5, 2023 7:45 am Because they want people to work, have jobs, and let technology catch up with need. WTF do we do with the EV batteries?... Bang on. And this is why the planet is gunna die. Sanctimonious woke, white, limousine lib American progressives demand that everyone in the world accept their solutions to the problem... ...or else. That's always been the case... ...about every effin thing! by islander on August 5, 2023 7:59 am Od needs to study up on the latest technology that we already have. For example: He asks,"WTF do we do with the EV batteries? Still a mystery?" "Though the cells in them can technically be used for home storage or similar, they can now be recycled almost completely, thanks to advancements in EV battery recycling." He should read a bit about the things we can do with them. We're doing far better than he knows with our technology. I have solar panels that provide me with all my electricity during the day. I have a "battery bank" for home storage of the electricity produced during the day and we use that we use during the night. Despite the Republicans doing all that they can to block it, they can't stop our progress toward ultimately getting most of our power from green energy and that's a "good thing". Check it out. electrifynews.com by Donna on August 5, 2023 8:14 am Interesting, islander. I hadn't heard about that. The real reason the Republican Party has always been hostile towards efforts to curb the burning of fossil fuels is because the fossil fuel industry is one of if not their primary donor. by islander on August 5, 2023 8:29 am Donna, I have no doubt that we all know why the Republicans are and have been setting up roadblocks in their attempts to suppress green energy. Even our two Republican Trump defenders here know it. They think if they call Trump despicable enough times, it will absolve them for supporting him and for voting for him. It's downright comical !!! LoL !! by oldedude on August 5, 2023 8:31 am This is also why pedojoe is losing the little brown people vote. They are the one's being hurt by pedojoe and his handlers. They saw during trumpster, they were safer. The exception to this was (as Indy and I have already discussed) lower overall violent crime. The exception to this is 2020/2021 when the left took over several cities which are now known for losing most of their tax base. (New York has had an exodus over the past decade of about 1.4 million people, data last year showed.) Maslow's theory. People want to survive first. Take care of their families first. Have safety for themselves and their loved ones first. All these things have been taken from them by the obomber/pedojoe autocratic governments. It also leaves them demeaned in their eyes by not being able to provide for their families. This is no different. When they pulled the two pipelines, thousands of native Americans were simply unemployed. In one day, they went from good paying jobs with benefits, to welfare (again). pedojoe makes it almost impossible to drill and use our oil for the time between we get batteries that can be recycled and use metals that we have access to without going to China. usatoday.com simplypsychology.org by islander on August 5, 2023 8:38 am You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about OD. by Donna on August 5, 2023 9:04 am Unemployment has decreased significantly since Biden's been president. I think the Dems have lost some support from POC primarily because of the Dems' stances on social issues. POC tend to be more conservative on social issues than White liberals because they're generally more religious than White liberals. by oldedude on August 5, 2023 2:02 pm Unemployment has decreased significantly since Biden's been president. Thank God for part-time jobs to make a difference! KEY TAKEAWAYS - More Americans were working part-time and temporary jobs last month. _ “Involuntary part-time workers,” those in part-time positions for economic reasons, increased by a seasonally adjusted 303,000 in July. - The metric is volatile, but could suggest labor market instability ahead. cnbc.com by Ponderer on August 5, 2023 2:11 pm Okay. I'll bite. olde dude, what is it that Biden isn't doing that would make jobs pay more and offer more hours...? by oldedude on August 5, 2023 2:48 pm Quit over taxing manufacturing jobs so they'll come back to the states. Quit chickenshitting the oil industry so we can get back to a net zero instead of relying on foreign oil and natural gas.* Actually start working on the infrastructure to put workers back to work. *This has a net affect on everything bought in the US. From construction materials to food to mass transit to personal transportation. Regular gas was at $2.19 when pedojoe was sworn in, it hit $4.19 a year ago (June 19), and was $3.83 last week and is on the rise. Diesel is also more expensive. That means transportation cost for goods and services are more expensive, making them more expensive. by Ponderer on August 5, 2023 4:03 pm Actually you made a good point about p/t jobs being counted as employed, od. I've even made that point before. I'm pretty sure that that started under Clinton. Quit overtaxing manufacturing jobs? Is that what you meant to write, od? I'm pretty sure that American workers are taxed much less than in most of the world. "Actually start working on the infrastructure to put workers back to work." Well you know there was that infrastructure bill that even many Republicans voted for, of course after they watered it down, but they did vote for it. The price of gasoline was much lower when Obama was president too (see chart at link). It started rising when Trump took office and didn't start falling again until June '18. And Biden's already in trouble with the left for increasing drilling. The main reason it's been abnormally high is because of the sanctions on Russia. eia.gov by Donna on August 5, 2023 4:04 pm Mine ^ by oldedude on August 5, 2023 4:32 pm Actually you made a good point about p/t jobs being counted as employed, od. I've even made that point before. I'm pretty sure that that started under Clinton. Yeah, it's been awhile, and something I look in to from time to time. It is also a claim that everyone uses, so there's that. Quit overtaxing manufacturing jobs? Is that what you meant to write, od? I'm pretty sure that American workers are taxed much less than in most of the world. My point is to quit taxing the manufacturers. That's what's driving them out. From auto makers to buying japanese & chinese steel, and the vast majority of the drugs you get prescribed and the OTC stuff. "Actually start working on the infrastructure to put workers back to work." Well you know there was that infrastructure bill that even many Republicans voted for, of course after they watered it down, but they did vote for it. Fewer than one of every four dollars in this bill is for what most Americans consider “infrastructure” — widening roads, filling potholes and repairing bridges. In their plan, GOP senators specifically list roads and bridges, public transit systems, rail, drinking water & wastewater infrastructure, ports & inland waterways, airports, safety, broadband infrastructure and water storage. The price of gasoline was much lower when Obama was president too (see chart at link). It started rising when Trump took office and didn't start falling again until June '18. And Biden's already in trouble with the left for increasing drilling. The main reason it's been abnormally high is because of the sanctions on Russia. My point is WTF do we go to Russia? And with those sanctions, we were keeping the incursion into Ukraine smaller (so take your pick). If we're able to export LPG that would offset that cost. Keystone XL doesn’t cost the taxpayers a penny and President Biden killed it with his executive pen, but he approved a pipeline from Siberia, Russia, to Germany. thehill.com npr.org by Donna on August 5, 2023 5:33 pm See the list of corporate tax tates at the link below. U.S.: 25.81 China: 25.00 Japan: 29.74 Also, U.S. tax laws contain so many loopholes that some of the wealthiest U.S. corporations often pay little or no corporate taxes. Plus, the U.S. oil industry is federally subsidized. So I don't buy that high corporate taxes are what's preventing corporations from moving to the U.S. In today's world we have Japanese auto companies setting up assembly plants in the U.S. And Chrysler owns Fiat. They're just a couple of examples of how today's multinational corporate world isn't anything like it used to be back in the day. taxfoundation.org by oldedude on August 5, 2023 6:51 pm You forget that Americans get paid dollar on the dime (when they're paid) from the chinese. AND they're using slave labor. So those things also figure into the issue. So with the extra taxes, they can go to china, thailand, mexico, central/south amreica, africa, etcetcetc and put Amreicans out of work. But I also know that's the last of your cares. American workers don't matter to you. And you're one of them. I don't get it? by Donna on August 6, 2023 10:10 am I couldn't make sense out of any of that. by Donna on August 6, 2023 10:23 am I mean I understand what you're saying, but none of that had anything to do with what I said. by Indy! on August 6, 2023 10:34 am We have the lowest corporate tax rate in the world when it comes to what they actually pay. We have tons of loopholes, they're offshoring a good portion of their profits and manipulating their stocks to avoid taxes. And whenever we pretend to "tax the rich" it's always some sort of empty genuflecting like Biden's "taxing billionaires" lie that will only affect an incredibly small percentage of cheaters (if anyone). What we should be doing is charging them more if they're moving jobs out of the US. Treat them like foreign companies or whatever it takes to get some cash out of them. by oldedude on August 6, 2023 11:57 am We can argue incessantly and never get anywhere. The fact is that it's cheaper to produce in other countries. If they're taxed at the same rate as say, Mexico, but have the additional issues of minimum wage, fair wage, benefits, etc, why would they produce here? That doesn't make business sense. We do pay more for US made products. I choose generally to buy those products. Even our fruit and vegetables is cheaper coming in from Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama, etc. Why? Their costs are not the same. Same thing with Chinese prescription drugs. A Department of Commerce study that found that 97 percent of all antibiotics in the United States came from China. cfr.org by Donna on August 6, 2023 1:46 pm "The fact is that it's cheaper to produce in other countries." - od Yes, but as I said several posts back and also because of what Indy said, that's not because of corporate tax rates, it's because as you said, od, in countries like China, they employ child and slave labor and pay workers horribly. by oldedude on August 6, 2023 2:00 pm And taxes are part of the expenditures. So if other costs are up, there has to be a reason for them to produce here cheaper. Income v. expenditures. It's all tied into bottom line. by Donna on August 6, 2023 2:11 pm Corporations in the US are already getting the best tax breaks on the planet. by oldedude on August 6, 2023 3:01 pm So what's your solution to keeping jobs here. This includes computer software/ hardware development, Auto manufacturing, solar panels, infrastructure (like bridges, roads, etc), also the service industry. Geraldo Rivera did a study in NYC about opening a Lemonade Stand. So he went to see what he needed to do. It was going to take him six months and $3,000 to open one. AND he had to had an office for the health inspector that was available 24/7, and a fire extinguisher. For something we did for $5 and borrowed a table. by islander on August 6, 2023 4:53 pm Od wrote: "Geraldo Rivera did a study in NYC about opening a Lemonade Stand. So he went to see what he needed to do. It was going to take him six months and $3,000 to open one. AND he had to had an office for the health inspector that was available 24/7, and a fire extinguisher. For something we did for $5 and borrowed a table."...Source please! "Geraldo Rivera?" LoL !! What a bunch of Bull !!! Do you really believe that kind of crap? I'm sure you can look up the "official' regulations in a big city for opening a commercial restaurant and apply it to a kid's lemonade stand but that's not how it is in real life. LoL !!! Up here in Maine, as with every where else I've ever lived, we have tag sales, yard sales, and home vegetable stands, kids lemonade stands and the police are not out there arresting folks because they don't comply with the rules for commercial businesses. In fact we have a new thing going on in our town, if you have a surplus (more than you can use) from your vegetable garden, you can put out a table near the Rd. and offer your surplus for free to those who might need what you have with the sign, 'Take What You Need' !! It's great if your tomatoes or cucumbers didn't do too well in your garden but your beans were exceptional! Put your beans out and stop by someone else's place and pick some up tomatoes! These tables probably don't meet the the commercial requirements but nobody is going to be arrested because of that. Same with kids selling lemonade. Where do you live Od that a kid's lemonade stand must meet the commercial business requirements? by Donna on August 6, 2023 6:50 pm There are plenty of jobs, od. The problem is that many of them don't pay enough to be able to live on. For example, the MW in L.A. County is $16.78. That comes to approximately $33,000 a year for a f/t worker. It's difficult to find a 1-br apartment in L.A. County for under $1500 a month. That comes to $18,000 a year just for rent, which would be 55% of a f/t worker making MW. Management companies require that the rental price doesn't exceed 30% of your income. That's what prompted Ponderer and I to move from L.A. County to Tucson, AZ. Here, even if you find a cheap place like the one we have ( we pay $800/month, which is the most inexpensive rental we could find that wasn't slummy looking ), you'd barely qualify (29%) if you made L.A. County's MW. But Tucson's MW is only $13.85/hr., which comes to approximately $28,000/yr for a f/t worker, and would only get you into a rental that's under $700/month. I posted a graph a couple of weeks ago that illustrates how badly wages have lagged behind GDP for most workers (link below). That the biggest reason why so many Americans are so cynical about the American Dream. selectsmart.com by oldedude on August 7, 2023 3:33 am Donna- Yes, that's a problem all over (I think). Places cheaper to live generally don't have the pay scale to meet that amount for rent, etc. So the "cost of living" may be relatively "low" compared to national standards, but the pay scale is often mis-aligned. How to fix it though... If the minimum wage goes up, cost of goods and services goes up. The better way, I think, is the jobs market. Many of our jobs (in our area) are entry level. We're a bedroom community that doesn't have their own production. The biggest professional industry is for nursing staff (BSN/RN and assistants). Outside of that, my daughter in law is an auditor for global companies that check their auditing processes with multiple offices globally. Their pay scale is based on a national/ international scale. She can do this from home (mostly) and makes good money (better than my son as a supervisor working for the county). By in far, there are no coding jobs, and most of the computer folks make their money in small businesses unhacking the computers and phones of the old folks that get scammed. Honestly, that's all I have. You have lots of people and a finite number of jobs, so they can pay less and still have workers. At our ages, it's hard to tell someone "go back to college." We honed our skills over a lifetime. by oldedude on August 7, 2023 3:44 am indy isle- Where do you live Od that a kid's lemonade stand must meet the commercial business requirements? NYC. You should actually read a post before you accuse anyone of anything. This was his exercise in how your favorite people (HUGE GOVERNMENT SWAMP) treat small businesses. There are rules via OSHA that handle everything that NYC said they had to have. Except NYC was extreme. I've talked about EPA chickingshitting farmers over "water" rights. This is a bureaucracy gone amok. Much like NYC. Like I said, Rivera went in telling the city he wanted to do a lemonade stand for his kids. What would he need. This is what they told him to do it legally. So next time you "reply," you might want to check your cranial/rectal inversion. *Indy. my apologies for pulling you in to this. by islander on August 7, 2023 7:27 am Od, I asked you for your source on the Rivera lemonade story...you still haven’t given us one. Also I’d like to know what exactly are the OSHA regulations you said govern a child selling lemonade (on his or her own property). “HUGE GOVERNMENT SWAMP” is just a name that MAGA hats love to throw around...meaning the Federal government !! LoL !! I’ve been a small business owner virtually all my working life including even opening and running a small restaurant for a number of years, and it’s the local “small government”, city, town, and county (even down to homeowner’s associations) that are usually the biggest nuisances and can be ridiculous at times. These “small governments” are the kind Republicans, especially MAGA Republicans like Hate love to tout as reflecting the will of the people. What they don’t say is that “The People” usually means a very small group or clique who feel they need to control and run the town. `Fortunately, we have the HUGE GOVERNMENT SWAMP to keep these local yokels from violating our Constitutional rights. ”The United States Constitution includes many provisions that protect persons and entities from government action. For example, the Due Process Clause (Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments) safeguards against arbitrary denial of life, liberty, or property by the government. The Equal Protection Clause (Fourteenth Amendment), prohibits the STATE from denying any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. And the Contract Clause (Article I, section 10, clause 1) prohibits the state from enacting any law that retroactively impairs contract rights” Here is another example...Did you know that some municipal governments forbid people from growing vegetables in their home garden on their own property? These are the kind of local laws that we can appeal by going to the HUGE GOVERNMENT SWAMP. But none of this has anything to do with bringing jobs back to our country or climate change (see topic title). Check out the link: ij.org by Donna on August 7, 2023 7:59 am The graph I posted at the SelectSmart link on my previous post shows that the bottom 90% of workers are making wages that aren't commensurate with our nation's GDP growth. That means that the income of 90% of Americans isn't keeping up with the cost of living. No wonder homelessness has become a crisis. The problem is simple: Corporate America isn't paying most Americans enough to live on. We're becoming a feudalistic society. Because of greed. by Donna on August 7, 2023 2:46 pm Back to climate change. Some good news. Just how fast will clean energy grow in the U.S.? The Inflation Reduction Act set the stage for explosive solar and wind energy growth. "My latest piece for Yale has good news for the climate! I looked at US clean energy projections from a variety of sources, and the consensus is that the amount of solar and wind generation in the US will nearly double between now and 2025, and then nearly double again by 2030, supplying about half the country’s power by the turn of the decade. We still need to do more to meet our Paris commitments, but we're making some good progress thanks in large part to the Inflation Reduction Act." - Dana Nuccitelli, author of the article, via Facebook yaleclimateconnections.org by Indy! on August 7, 2023 6:36 pm There was a study that showed the top 1% stole $50 Trillion from the rest of us in the last 40 years. We would basically be making double what our current salary is if wages kept up with production like they did before supply side "economics" was instituted. And that's not just on Reagan/Bush/Bush etc... Clinton and Obama and now Biden are keeping the status quo of supply side in place. We really lost our only opportunity to save this country when Obama sold out to Wall Street like all the others did. The American Dream is dead. People under 30 are trying to get out of the country. I told my nieces they should look to move to another country asap. by islander on August 8, 2023 6:07 am That is great news for us swampsters, Donna !! 👍 I think what a lot of people who ridicule our efforts to convert to green energy forget or never understood is that fact that it's not just the damage that we are doing to our environment by having to extract and burn fossil fuels, but it's also the power over us in all aspects of our lives that it gives those who have the sources for those fossil fuels...Oil for example...The Middle East for example. If we were to convert to green energy, where would that leave the the oil cartels? by oldedude on August 8, 2023 6:59 am Yet again, I'm a proponent of getting us to green energy as soon as technologically possible. Energy independence is just one of those reasons. I would love to put OPEC out of business (for many reasons), but they're so dependent on their oil, they have the rest of the world by the nuts. We are severely lacking the infrastructure to demand clean energy at this time. At this point, if nine key substations are knocked out, the U.S. could suffer a crippling coast-to-coast blackout for 18 months — or more. I find that disconcerting. It would be a good thing to update our electric grid to handle the energy and not be so vulnerable blackouts. CA demands people buy EVs, and yet they have brown outs routinely. I don't think that makes sense at all. ConED isn't interested in improving their infrastructure either. And I don't see Newsome pressuring ConED to improve. So there's that. People will force others to submit, but not the people that can do the big jobs. I know that if I don't want to put people out of good paying jobs allow people/ areas and force others to be on the homer bandwagon, I'm "anti-environment." One of those evil people that should be forced into a Pol Pot "re-education" camp. utilitydive.com Go To Top

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