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Florida Judge rules to protect Floridians from the governor's attack on the First Amendment

By Donna
November 19, 2022 7:15 am
Category: Education

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A federal judge in Florida partially blocked a law championed by Gov. Ron DeSantis designed to limit the discussion of racism and privilege in schools and workplace training.

In a 139-page order issued Thursday, Tallahassee U.S. District Judge Mark Walker excoriated the Republican-led bill and blocked it from taking effect in the state's public universities.

"The State of Florida's decision to choose which viewpoints are worthy of illumination and which must remain in the shadows has implications for us all," Walker wrote. "But the First Amendment does not permit the State of Florida to muzzle its university professors, impose its own orthodoxy of viewpoints, and cast us all into the dark."

The legislation, previously called the Stop W.O.K.E. Act – the acronym standing for "Wrongs to Our Kids and Employees" – is now known as the Individual Freedom Act. DeSantis signed the bill into law this spring; it initially took effect in July.

The bill prohibits schools and workplaces from any instruction that suggests that any individual, by virtue of their race, color, sex or national origin, "bears responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish or other forms of psychological distress" on account of historical acts of racism. The bill also forbids education or training that says individuals are "privileged or oppressed" due to their race or sex...

In his order, Judge Walker, an Obama appointee, opened by reciting the first sentence of 1984, George Orwell's novel about life under a futuristic totalitarian government.

"'It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen,' and the powers in charge of Florida's public university system have declared the State has unfettered authority to muzzle its professors in the name of 'freedom,'" the judge wrote. "This is positively dystopian."


Cited and related links:

  1. npr.org

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Comments on "Florida Judge rules to protect Floridians from the governor's attack on the First Amendment ":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 7:23 am

    So, Critical Race Theory can't be assailed.

    BTW, I love Nineteen Eighty-Four. But, we are talking about PUBLIC schools supported by the state.

    A quote? I'm pretty sure that Nineteen Eighty-Four ain't set in Florida. Bahahahahahahahahahaha.

    I see an appeal coming.


  2. by Donna on November 19, 2022 7:28 am

    Oh stuff it. You only cry about Big Brother when Big Brother is a Democrat.


  3. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 7:34 am

    You're wrong, Donna.

    If DeSantis attempted this stuff in private secondary schools, pb would be furious! But, Donna, public schools serve the PUBLIC!

    You have to see the distinction!


  4. by Donna on November 19, 2022 7:42 am

    Our Constitutional rights aren't guaranteed in the private sector and absolutely apply to the public sector. Apparently the dictator of Florida doesn't believe our Constitutional rights are guaranteed anywhere.


  5. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 7:52 am

    Donna!

    Our Constitutional Rights are guaranteed to every citizen by virtue of their citizenship. They are individual liberties!

    Teachers in public schools are paid with public monies. They work for the public. They are beholden to us. We pay their salaries.

    Anyway, I expect an appeal.

    As I understand Florida, it doesn't have a dictator. It has a legislature. These guidelines were developed by the people's representatives. This "of the people, by the people and for the people" concept can be vexing, I know.


  6. by oldedude on November 19, 2022 8:02 am
    Teaching racism is wrong. SCOTUS has already said that. Period.

    One of the issues is the parents will not send their kids to schools teaching this. And School boards will be overwhelmingly overturned if they introduce it.

    There are a couple of counties here that might get away with it, many counties have tried, and they were voted out. My county went from predominately woke, to having only one dim out of seven on the board. Parents want their children to learn to read, write, and do math. They also want the unabridged version of history. That means we talk about having slavery and the truth of how horrible it was. Not sweeping it under the rug because some azzwipe rewrote it.

    Starting next year, the (now) two-year-old will start preschool. In a private school that is extremely open about NOT teaching wokeness.



  7. by Donna on November 19, 2022 8:06 am

    The little dictator you and od are so impressed with has been getting pushback from Republicans too.

    *

    Florida is fighting back," Gov. Ron DeSantis tweeted August 22. "We stand for the values of places like Destin, Dunedin and Deland — not Davos."

    Who is the enemy DeSantis is combating? "Woke CEOs" and any "corporate power" that aims to impose "an ideological agenda on the American people" by championing values of "diversity, inclusion, and equity" in investment considerations and workplace policies.

    Going after corporate America might seem a surprising move for a Yale-educated lawyer who will likely run for president in 2024 and is backed by more than 40 billionaire donors. But having traction as a Republican candidate in many cases means posing as a defender of freedoms threatened by political correctness and the machinations of "corporate cartel elites." DeSantis apparently is fine with harming Florida's reputation as a business-friendly state, if that's what it takes to make his mark and impose his political will.

    Yet businesses are pushing back. DeSantis has faced a "summer of litigation" that has complicated his efforts to mandate what businesses can and cannot say and do with their own employees. Florida is now a test case for the response of American business to government interference in the private sector...

    Free speech concerns also led to the defeat of much of a DeSantis measure to fine technology companies if they deplatform political candidates. While the governor leaned hard into the populist rhetoric, calling Twitter and other corporations "elites" and "Big Tech censors" pushing "the dominant Silicon Valley ideology." Circuit Judge Kevin Newsom, a Trump appointee, was having none of it.

    "Put simply, with minor exceptions, the government can't tell a private person or entity what to say or how to say it," Newsom ruled, finding that social media companies are "private actors" protected by the First Amendment...

    Others appointed by Republicans are equally baffled.

    "Sadly, [the law] moves us one step closer to authoritarian government," says Marcos Daniel Jiménez, who served as a U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida during the George W. Bush administration. "Targeting the speech of private employers based on the beliefs and preferences of current lawmakers" places "American liberty" and "our system of free enterprise" in jeopardy, Jiménez concludes.

    But that's OK with DeSantis, whose message that Florida is a "free state" with respect to the federal government's "authoritarian, arbitrary, and seemingly never-ending mandates and restrictions" covers up his own desire to police speech and behavior.

    advocate.com


  8. by Donna on November 19, 2022 8:13 am

    "Parents want their children to learn to read, write, and do math. They also want the unabridged version of history. That means we talk about having slavery and the truth of how horrible it was. Not sweeping it under the rug because some azzwipe rewrote it." - od

    Did you have a straight face when you wrote that?


  9. by oldedude on November 19, 2022 8:13 am
    So you are supporting teaching kids to be racists.

    And you're on the record and doubled down on it. Got it. Hitler did the same thing in the 1930's. Good job.


  10. by Donna on November 19, 2022 8:33 am

    How is teaching kids about racism telling kids they're racist?

    My 7th grade Anerican History teacher was a Black woman who taught me and my all-White classmates a great deal about racism, and not once did I interpret that as telling us that we were racist.




  11. by oldedude on November 19, 2022 8:43 am
    CRT "assumes" ALL whites are racist. That's the core of it.

    I do agree about teaching about racism as I said above. It needs to be a continual process. The difference is teaching the ACT of racism, not that you are racist because you're white.

    I admire what your teacher did. That's a great introduction/ continuation of the problem. In the second grade we read a book called "white dog, black dog" Long story short, it described how racism is taught. Mostly intergenerationally. The lesson still sticks to me today.


  12. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 8:52 am

    Yeah, OD. Apparently, the people of Florida and their representatives were attempting to control the teaching of Critical Race Theory, which is offensive not only to white people.

    We know very little about this from Donna's brief post and the article but I can't imagine that, if we understand the essence of what's going on, this ruling will survive appeal.

    Also, I can't believe that Donna doesn't know that this is the controversial CRT that is at issue.


  13. by Donna on November 19, 2022 12:02 pm

    "CRT "assumes" ALL whites are racist. That's the core of it." - od

    I'm not an expert on CRT, but that sounds like a load of nonsense. Obviously not all Whites are racist. Who pumped that crazy shit into your brain?



  14. by Donna on November 19, 2022 12:20 pm

    od: Did you get that idea about CRT from what some critics have said about Robin DiAngelo's book “White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism”?


  15. by Curt_Anderson on November 19, 2022 12:28 pm
    I am not a CRT expert either. From I've read about it though, the theory does NOT posit that all white people are racists.

    However, CRT makes the case that historically and currently white people benefit from laws and society's views of race. Black people conversely, are disadvantaged by those same laws and societal views.

    I am sure that I have benefitted from racism past and present. That doesn't make me a racist. I also have benefitted from being a male. I am not sexist either.


  16. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 12:38 pm

    The point of CRT is not that all white people are racists, it's that all white people are guilty of racism.

    That's what people who sued over the law want to be able to teach:

    The bill prohibits schools and workplaces from any instruction that suggests that any individual, by virtue of their race, color, sex or national origin, "bears responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish or other forms of psychological distress" on account of historical acts of racism.

    That's CRT. It itself is racism.



  17. by Donna on November 19, 2022 12:46 pm

    Exactly, Curt.

    Just read a thoughtful piece on the backlash against Critical Race Theory. From that piece by Stephen Menendian:

    "...Which brings us to the new flurry of anti-CRT op-eds, angry parents, and statehouse bills aiming to ban or curb CRT. To begin with, these efforts are largely misplaced...

    Similarly, the right-wing histrionics that CRT is being taught in primary and secondary schools strikes me as silly. As I just explained, the body of scholarship that is "CRT" is written for and aimed at graduate level audiences, such as those in law school or practicing lawyers, academics, and policymakers, not high school or even undergraduate students.

    CRT scholarship presumes that readers are familiar with legal concepts that are taught over weeks in law school courses (and all accredited law schools require an undergraduate degree). Unless those frameworks can be clearly explicated to secondary school students or undergraduate students, teaching CRT first would be like teaching advanced calculus to students who haven't taken algebra first. Or, more precisely, it would be like teaching the Theory of Relativity and/or Quantum Physics to students who are unfamiliar with Classical Mechanics (Newtonian physics). It is not that it would be "inappropriate" so much as it would be incomprehensible: a student couldn't understand what CRT is trying to explain without being grounded in the legal theories that it is critiquing. If students don't understand the prevailing legal frameworks, then CRT isn't going to make much sense.

    The details in the attacks on “CRT” reveal that most of the critics have very little idea (and don’t really care to understand) what they are even aiming at. Rather than attacking CRT, some of the key phrases in the proposed statehouse bills are rather ideas or claims made in much more recent and mainstream writing or advocacy, such as things Robin DiAngelo has suggested or Tema Okun has circulated. If Robin DiAngelo and Tema Okun are CRT scholars, then I’m an astrophysicist.

    The critics of CRT have taken an obscure term describing a niche area of scholarship and are deliberately trying to redefine what it is and rebrand what it represents. As a now-deleted Twitter post by one of the more vocal CRT critics explained: “The goal is to have the public read something crazy in the newspaper and immediately think 'critical race theory.' We have decodified the term and will recodify it to annex the entire range of cultural constructions that are unpopular with Americans.” In other words, they are literally redefining the word to mean something it does not. They are deliberately positioning CRT as a stand-in or symbol for a much larger and broader body of thought, most of which is only tangentially related to CRT scholarship.

    belonging.berkeley.edu


  18. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 2:11 pm

    Similarly, the right-wing histrionics that CRT is being taught in primary and secondary schools strikes me as silly.

    Do you understand that when "the people and their representatives" created a law banning the teaching of what CRT teaches, people sued to be able to teach what CRT teaches?


  19. by Curt_Anderson on November 19, 2022 2:26 pm
    HtS,
    Sure we understand that. A lawsuit was brought forward on First Amendment grounds. What's your point?


  20. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 3:09 pm

    My point is that the law is intended to prohibit the teaching that all white people are guilty of racism because that's CRT and it's being taught in public schools. The people who teach it sued to be able to continue to teach it.


  21. by Donna on November 19, 2022 3:52 pm

    Do you have a link to that, Hts?


  22. by HatetheSwamp on November 19, 2022 5:17 pm

    Donna,

    I know that you are earnest and sincere but you are the highest disinformation person I've ever encountered. The whole d@mn W.O.K.E. Act is a direct attempt to fight CRT!!!!!



    flgov.com


  23. by Curt_Anderson on November 19, 2022 5:45 pm
    My 134 year old home sets on land formerly occupied by Native Americans. My neighborhood, known as the Railroad District, came into being as a result of the Southern-Pacific north/south railroad line which was built by Chinese laborers. The Chinese were not allowed to live in town but were relegated to tents and shanties across the railroad tracks.

    I am the beneficiary of those and other past racist policies. Acknowledging that fact doesn't mean I am racist. Why is admitting the facts so hard for some people?


  24. by HatetheSwamp on November 20, 2022 5:05 am

    I am the beneficiary of those and other past racist policies. Acknowledging that fact doesn't mean I am racist. Why is admitting the facts so hard for some people?


    Curt,

    I think that, by now, everyone except progressive Swampcult elitists are sold on Martin Luther King's "content of their character, not the color of their skin" approach to racial justice.

    The truth is that, during the pandemic, when parents saw how CRT is taught to CHILDREN, they were revolted!

    My take on this is that if Donna and you et.al., choose to "feel guilt, anguish or other forms of psychological distress" on account of historical acts of racism,..." by all means, live your dream...

    ...just don't think that you have the right to foist that on the rest of us. Foisting is what this is all about. It's what you demand the right to do.


  25. by Donna on November 20, 2022 8:44 am

    Federal Judge Tells Ron Desantis to Sit Down And STFU

    The judge blocked Florida from enforcing its anti-free speech law restricting conversations about race, calling it “positively dystopian.”
    /


    Republicans talk a big game about free speech and the First Amendment. But when it comes down to it, they actually believe people should only be “free” to discuss topics they’ve approved. No elected official better epitomizes this hypocrisy than Florida governor Ron DeSantis who, in the last year alone, has signed a law effectively banning teachers from saying the word “gay” in grades K–3; punished one of the largest employers in the state for having the temerity to criticize the “Don’t Say Gay” law; and signed into law a bill—eye-rollingly named “Stop WOKE Act”—that restricts conversations about race in schools and businesses, in a patently obvious attempt to prevent real discussions about the role white people have played in the long history of systemic racism in America. And on Thursday, a federal judge called him on his bullshit.

    In a 138-page order, chief US district judge Mark Walker blocked state officials from enforcing a central piece of the Stop WOKE Act, which he dubbed “positively dystopian” and says violates the First Amendment. Citing George Orwell’s 1984, Walker wrote that DeSantis and company seem to believe that “the State has unfettered authority to muzzle its professors in the name of ‘freedom,’” which is quite obviously not freedom at all. Zeroing in on the fact that the law targets freedom of expression that DeSantis and his fellow Republicans don’t like, Walker wrote: “The law officially bans professors from expressing disfavored viewpoints in university classrooms while permitting unfettered expression of the opposite viewpoints. Defendants argue that, under this Act, professors enjoy ‘academic freedom’ so long as they express only those viewpoints of which the State approves.”

    rsn.org


  26. by HatetheSwamp on November 20, 2022 9:04 am

    Donna,

    Enough with your deranged rsn.org propaganda. If a progressive elitist wants to rent space in a mall and open a CRT store, no lover of individual liberty would lift an eyebrow. We'd all celebrate it. Truly.

    Your rsn.org gang would poop their pants if a fundamentalist'd claim its their free speech right to teach the virgin birth in a public elementary school as free speech, but when someone wants to bring a first grade girl to tears shaming her for racism, you scream, FREEDOM FREEDOM FREEDOM!

    Over here on the Bill of Rights side, we decry teacher led prayer and Bible reading in public schools with tax payer money...as do your rsn.org haters. The difference between you and us is that we're consistent.

    Let your wokesters start a CRT church. You can teach and preach until midnight. Advertise a private school guaranteeing a CRT based curriculum. Have at it.

    Just not on the taxpayers' dime!


  27. by oldedude on November 20, 2022 9:09 am
    Just like your complete lack of knowledge on the elementary schools teaching sex ed, you're just as pig ignorant (thank you pondy) about this.


  28. by Donna on November 20, 2022 9:23 am

    "Enough with your deranged rsn.org propaganda." - Hts

    Actually RSN bought the rights from Vanity Fair to print it.



  29. by Donna on November 20, 2022 9:30 am

    "Just like your complete lack of knowledge on the elementary schools teaching sex ed, you're just as pig ignorant (thank you pondy) about this." - od

    Actually I just asked Hts for a link to support what he posted. Btw, thank you, Hts. I spent a couple of hours yesterday educating myself on what Critical Race Theory is, and this morning I've been reading what all sides of the controversy have been saying about it.



  30. by Curt_Anderson on November 20, 2022 9:39 am
    I have to say, conservatives are such snowflakes! Any mention of past racial issues, apparently makes him feel guilty and sad. My Swedish ancestors were probably Vikings. I don’t feel bad or responsible at all about their raping and pillaging centuries ago.


  31. by Donna on November 20, 2022 10:31 am

    Detroit school district pushes back against anti-CRT legislation

    Teachers and school leaders in the Detroit school district are strongly opposed to bills in the Michigan legislature that would sharply restrict how racism and sexism are taught.

    The Detroit Public Schools Community District has submitted about 81 letters opposing House Bill 5097 and Senate Bill 460, introduced this past year and sponsored by Republican state Rep. Andrew Beeler and Republican state Sen. Lana Theis, to lawmakers. Most of the letters were written by teachers. 

    Bill 5097 passed the Michigan House on Nov. 2 and is awaiting a hearing from the Senate Committee on Education and Career Readiness. The proposed legislation would prohibit school lessons that promote “race or gender stereotyping.”

    If Senate Bill 460 passes, schools would lose 5% of their funding if educators teach critical race theory, an academic framework that historically examines systemic racism as a part of American life and institutions. The bill has not come to the Senate floor.

    [One of the problems in this controversy is that everyone seems to have their own version of what they think CRT is. Yesterday I spent a couple of hours educating myself on that very question. Btw, I didn't get my information from politicians, political pundits, or journalists that have a political agenda.

    My conclusion is that there are a lot of people on both sides that don't seem to have a clue about what Critical Race Theory really is. Actually it's a graduate level college course that covers systemic racism, especially as it concerns laws and governance. It isn't at all about promoting the idea that White people are automatically racist, nor is it what some educators in K-12 schools who say they support CRT are actually teaching. - Donna]


    Michigan educators could also be docked for teaching “anti-American ideas” about race, or material from “The 1619 Project,” a New York Times Magazine initiative that ties the growth of the United States to the consequences of slavery and the contributions of Black Americans.

    [That strikes me as an overreach by Big Brother. It's the type of thing we've seen from both fascist and communist governments around the world - Donna]

    CRT has quickly become a catchall term used by some conservative lawmakers and activists to describe various state and local efforts to create equity policies or diverse curriculums in K-12 schools. 

    [Bingo. Both sides, in my estimation, are distorting was CRT is - Donna]

    “Our curriculum is deeply using critical race theory especially in social studies, but you’ll find it in English language arts and the other disciplines,” said Superintendent Nikolai Vitti during a school board meeting Tuesday. 

    [My understanding is that CRT is an advanced line of study that K-12 students are simply not ready for, as it is a graduate level course - Donna]

    “Students need to understand the truth of history … understand the history of this country, to better understand who they are and about the injustices that have occurred in this country.”

    [Of course they do. To not teach that would be censorship. - Donna]

    In a subsequent academic committee meeting Monday afternoon, Vitti reiterated that the district embraces the basic tenets of CRT as part of its 2020 anti-racism resolution to reexamine district-wide policies and curriculum and encourage students and teachers to critically analyze dominant historical narratives and question institutions of power.

    [In a broad sense that can be considered a "basic tenet of CRT", but to me that's kind of like saying that arithmetic is a basic tenet of calculus - Donna]

    School board member Deborah Hunter-Harvill suggested drafting an additional resolution outlining the district’s opposition to the anti-CRT bill at the December school board meeting, as well as promoting letter writing among district parents and teachers.

    Vitti said he believed the proposed bills may get passed based on what other Republican-controlled legislatures with similar measures have done. The district’s best strategy to fight the bills, the superintendent added, is to lean on Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s veto power. 

    “What I find interesting about this whole idea is that if you look at what critical race theory is, by definition, this legislation is probably the best example of it,” Vitti said.

    “You have white Republicans largely outside of Detroit — a community of color — legislating what you can or cannot teach in schools. If that’s not one of the best examples of structural racism, I don’t know what is.”

    [I'm all for parents having a say in what's being taught to their children, not in what's being taught to other parents' children, though. - Donna]

    Port Huron Republican Andrew Beeler, a lead sponsor of the House bill, recently said he was careful not to invoke the term “critical race theory” in his proposed legislation as other conservatives across the country have used to condemn curricula they deem too liberal.

    “The reason I don’t use that language in this bill is because it means too many different things to too many different people,” Beeler said.

    [Bingo. That's the fundamental problem with this controversy - Donna]

    Community members decried the recent bills occurring at the Legislature and across the country and its attempts to censor Black history.

    “We are at a point where history is about to repeat itself and the repeat is keeping the truth away from our children,” Helen Moore, a longtime education activist, said at Tuesday’s school board meeting.

    [History is about to repeat itself regarding the treatment of Black people? I don't think so. We still have problems regarding bigotry, but IMO what she said is hyperbolic. - Donna]  

    “American history. Black history. African-centered education. (Critical) race theory. What’s the difference? Why are we so afraid to deal with what has happened in America?”

    The Detroit school district has a long history of centering African American history and establishing schools that emphasize Afrocentric traditions. The district had over a dozen African-centered schools during the 1990s. Following a series of closures during the district’s state-run emergency management, the city currently only has two African-centric schools: Paul Robeson/Malcolm X and Marcus Garvey Academy.

    Jerome Shell, a self-described “concerned senior citizen,” took issue with the anti-CRT proponents’ avoidance of acknowledging the importance of teaching Black history for African American students.

    “If you don’t know where you come from, you don’t know where you’re going,” Shell said.

    “Our children need to know their story. No student needs to be able to graduate from any public school or institution without knowing our story in its entirety, with all of its graphic (details).”

    [IMO Anything short of that would be a disservice to students across America. From my understanding, what many anti-"CRT" people are getting worked into a lather about is this idea that White children are being taught that they're automatically racist by virtue of the fact that they're White, that they're responsible for everything awful that Blacks and people of color are dealing with today. If that idea were part of the curriculum, I'd be up in arms about it too, but from what I've read, the problem isn't the curriculum, but activist teachers who have gone way outside of the curriculum and taught students those IMO wrongheaded ideas. - Donna]

    detroit.chalkbeat.org


  32. by oldedude on November 20, 2022 11:22 am
    "[I'm all for parents having a say in what's being taught to their children, not in what's being taught to other parents' children, though. - Donna]"

    And I'm saying the overwhelming majority of parents in FL do not want it taught to their children. And that's the only piece that matters in this case. What they do in deetroit is immaterial. This is why the GOP flipped districts in the state and won bigger than they ever have. DeSantis is doing the will of the people. Period. That's also why the GOP hold a supermajority in the state house, and 28 of the 40 seats in the state senate.


  33. by Donna on November 20, 2022 11:32 am

    The problem, though, is that they've been lied to.

    Two-thirds of Americans were falsely led to believe that Iraq had WMD and about 60% of American supported the 2003 invasion of Iraq which was based on that lie.


  34. by HatetheSwamp on November 20, 2022 11:44 am

    The issue here is that public schools are public schools. Teachers don't work for parents. They work for the public.

    The public doesn't really want teachers to be spreading racism in any form.


  35. by oldedude on November 20, 2022 11:49 am
    The issue that I've said before, is that we were digging up binary missiles for years that Sadam had.


  36. by Donna on November 20, 2022 11:50 am

    True that. IMO both sides have overreached. America is in the era of the overreach.


  37. by oldedude on November 20, 2022 11:58 am
    "The problem, though, is that they've been lied to."

    Can you provide examples of how it is a lie?


  38. by Donna on November 20, 2022 12:03 pm

    od - I covered that in posts 17 and 31 on this topic thread, which if I were you, would have accused you of not reading what I posted.



  39. by oldedude on November 20, 2022 3:22 pm
    I did read them. I saw a bunch of your opinions. Those don't matter. I even responded to one.


  40. by Donna on November 27, 2022 12:57 pm

    "If DeSantis attempted this stuff in private secondary schools, pb would be furious! But, Donna, public schools serve the PUBLIC!" - Hts

    The Stop WOKE Act also restricts conversations about race in businesses. Sounds fascist to me. I see that neither you nor od commented on that part.




  41. by HatetheSwamp on November 27, 2022 2:18 pm

    Break that down for us.


  42. by Donna on November 27, 2022 6:19 pm

    I figured that since you've been commenting on this topic thread that you would have read the OP.

    "The bill prohibits schools and workplaces from any instruction that suggests that any individual, by virtue of their race, color, sex or national origin, "bears responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish or other forms of psychological distress" on account of historical acts of racism. The bill also forbids education or training that says individuals are "privileged or oppressed" due to their race or sex..."

    That was in my OP. Weird how you missed that, huh?







  43. by HatetheSwamp on November 28, 2022 3:53 am

    Donna,

    I can't see your quote...from super progressive, virulently anti-conservative, NPR...suggests that the W.O.K.E. Act "restricts CONVERSATIONS about race" in businesses.

    To pb and others...OD I suspect...and tens of millions of the informed, CRT's principles are as offensive regarding race as are what the KKK and Nazis believe. My guess that it's illegal for businesses in Florida to promote KKK propaganda in a business...and that you're comfortable with that.

    But, here's the thing. During Covid, you vehemently supported every mandate regarding government authority over what business can do...and pb and OD opposed them. If anyone here's justified in objecting to what you are claiming is happening in Florida?, it ain't you.


  44. by oldedude on November 28, 2022 4:09 am
    Critical Race Theory "assumes" that EVERY LAW in the western world is based on racism. They all are specifically racist against (mainly) blacks, although also (somewhat) also to Latinos, and other minorities. Interestingly, Asians are not really mentioned much here.

    The sheep stop there and just accept that as a truth. Conservatives use a classic "if=>then" phrase.

    IF Laws were/are predominately written by whites, and laws are racist. THEN, white males have been the elites for thousands of years and are racist.

    But wait! CRT doesn't "mention" skin color. It says that racism is a their "perception" that if a person "looks" like something, humans see this on a cultural plane. This perception is based on what the creators of CRT define as "correct."

    MY VIEW: So instead of using the MLK Jr view of melting the race issue so that all are equal, we must look only at the differences in races to "fix" the problems. Evidence and examples are linked in the citation, with copies of elementary and public-school programs. This is my problem with CRT. For thanksgiving, we had a single guy over that was a friend of my son's. He is first gen American, his parents coming from Nigeria. The interesting part is that he was the only native born Floridian in the group (which was a great conversation starter). We accepted him just like we would a person of any race. He was a taken in, fed, treated like a valued human being and a friend. In CRT, that is racist. We didn't treat him like a BLACK MALE.





    medium.com


  45. by islander on November 28, 2022 7:40 am

    "Critical Race Theory "assumes" that EVERY LAW in the western world is based on racism."

    That's what called a strawman, A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack.


    Here is what CRT REALLY is..."Critical race theory (CRT) is a cross-disciplinary examination, by social and civil-rights scholars and activists, of how laws, social and political movements, and media shape, and are shaped by, social conceptions of race and ethnicity. Goals include challenging all mainstream and "alternative" views of racism and racial justice, including conservative, liberal and progressive. The word critical in the name is an academic reference to critical thinking, critical theory, and scholarly criticism, rather than criticizing or blaming people." *

    * Wikipedia


  46. by Donna on November 28, 2022 7:57 am

    I see a lot of people on both sides politicizing CRT, like they do on every issue in America. It's gotten ridiculous.


  47. by oldedude on November 28, 2022 8:25 am
    That was off of Wiki, supported by a CRT website. So as you live in a land of unicorns and rainbows, the rest of us live in fact. That's what the folks the INVENTED CRT SAY.


  48. by oldedude on November 28, 2022 8:37 am
    It's kind of sad, when y'all are supporting something you know so little about you can't even talk basic facts. This is their first assumption, and the over-riding assumption of the "theory." I would suggest that you do a five minute search of the subject you're attacking. It would help supporting your own dogma and hatred.

    "critical race theory (CRT), intellectual and social movement and loosely organized framework of legal analysis based on the premise that race is not a natural, biologically grounded feature of physically distinct subgroups of human beings but a socially constructed (culturally invented) category that is used to oppress and exploit people of colour. Critical race theorists hold that racism is inherent in the law and legal institutions of the United States insofar as they function to create and maintain social, economic, and political inequalities between whites and nonwhites, especially African Americans. Critical race theorists are generally dedicated to applying their understanding of the institutional or structural nature of racism to the concrete (if distant) goal of eliminating all race-based and other unjust hierarchies."

    Its immediate precursor was the critical legal studies (CLS) movement, which dedicated itself to examining how the law and legal institutions serve the interests of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of the poor and marginalized. (CLS, an offshoot of Marxist-oriented critical theory, may also be viewed as a radicalization of early 20th-century legal realism, a school of legal philosophy according to which judicial decision making, especially at the appellate level, is influenced as much by nonlegal—political or ideological—factors as by precedent and principles of legal reasoning.

    britannica.com


  49. by islander on November 28, 2022 1:15 pm

    ”It's kind of sad, when y'all are supporting something you know so little about you can't even talk basic facts. This is their first assumption, and the over-riding assumption of the "theory." I would suggest that you do a five minute search of the subject you're attacking. It would help supporting your own dogma and hatred.”

    The above is too incomplete and convoluted to make much sense out of it. What, exactly, you are trying to say?

    1.“This is their first assumption, and the over-riding assumption of the "theory."

    What is the first and over-riding assumption and who holds it?

    “I would suggest that you do a five minute search of the subject you're attacking. ”

    Who is attacking what?

    ” It would help supporting your own dogma and hatred.”

    Who is the “your” you are talking about and what is their dogma? And what do they hate?


  50. by oldedude on November 28, 2022 6:27 pm
    Read my citations. Obviously you didn't. Of course, I should have known better, because you beat around the bush on answering any questions. I left you a five page article that outlines the theory, some history, and who did what. So actually, these questions are totally inane. Maybe you should have actually read your own citation. That maybe would have done you good.

    1. It's in the second citation. Quotes from those that originated the theory.

    2. Donna. Then you climbed on the homer bandwagon, as well as curt kind of responded, but was fairly neutral.

    3. You are attacking the FL governor, anyone and everyone that doesn't fall for your bullsht. Read the thread title "Florida Judge rules to protect Floridians from the governor's attack on the First Amendment"

    4. It was the all-inclusive You, maybe it should have been all y'all. YOUR dogma that won't let anything else in. Since no one could actually answer the question about the theory, I decided to look it up. Yours was in the same article as mine, but you chose to cherry-pick what you wanted and avoided the over-riding factor that ALL laws are inherently racist. Then called me bullsht when I said it. Again, read your own citations. It really helps.

    It's interesting that you can get so wound around the axle but have a free go at anyone else. Donna at least has enough stones to be an adult.


  51. by oldedude on November 28, 2022 6:35 pm
    Donna- Quote from your opening post. ""The bill prohibits schools and workplaces from any instruction that suggests that any individual, by virtue of their race, color, sex or national origin, "bears responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish or other forms of psychological distress" on account of historical acts of racism. The bill also forbids education or training that says individuals are "privileged or oppressed" due to their race or sex..."

    I wanted to bold out a different part, which is more applicable to the law, and WHY it is a law. It means no one can teach that you are a racist because you are white. And all blacks are victims of you throughout American history because you're white. And that because George Washington owned slaves, that makes YOU responsible for the slave trade. I think that's fair.


  52. by Donna on November 29, 2022 7:42 am

    "I wanted to bold out a different part, which is more applicable to the law, and WHY it is a law. It means no one can teach that you are a racist because you are white. And all blacks are victims of you throughout American history because you're white. And that because George Washington owned slaves, that makes YOU responsible for the slave trade. I think that's fair." - od

    What curriculum is instructing public school teachers "you are a racist because you are white", etc? No doubt there are probably are teachers who've taught that, but I've seen no evidence that it's in the curriculum. Any teacher who has taught that is fair game to be criticized, though.

    A few years ago, I joined a Facebook group called "Anti-racism". In that group were a several Black women who constantly lectured Whites on the board about how we had to shut up and listen to them. Rather than get into a pissing battle with them, I left the group after a few weeks.

    Anyhow, if any of those Black women were teachers, I imagine that they would be the type that would tell their White students the things you listed. IMO they should personally be reprimanded or fired, not the public schools or the curriculum.


  53. by oldedude on November 29, 2022 1:38 pm
    Is Critical Race Theory Taught in K-12 Schools? The NEA Says Yes, and That It Should Be.s
    "The National Education Association (NEA) appears to have accepted the conservative framing of CRT: namely, that it's not merely confined to academia but is in fact also being taught in K-12 schools. And the NEA thinks this is a good thing that should be defended.

    At its yearly annual meeting, conducted virtually over the past few days, the NEA adopted New Business Item 39, which essentially calls for the organization to defend the teaching of critical race theory.*

    the NEA asserts that CRT is a much broader concept—encompassing anti-capitalism and anti-ableism—and a vital tool for fostering "honesty" in K-12 education, the organization is essentially validating conservative parents' concerns."


    New website tracks where critical race theory is taught at US schools
    "A Cornell Law School professor has launched a new website about critical race theory curriculum in the US — in hopes of educating “concerned” parents about how the controversial movement impacts education.

    Criticalrace.org, created by William Jacobson, features a state-by-state list of more than 200 colleges and universities promoting critical race theory — which he describes as “a radical ideology that focuses on race as the key to understanding society, and objectifies people based on race.”

    “The website is a resource for parents and students who no longer can assume they will be left alone,” Jacobson told Fox News. “The entire ideology of CRT and ‘anti-racist’ training is that ‘silence is violence.'”


    The last reference is a map where you can learn what each state is teaching reletive to CRT.

    Donna- My preference would be to give you a list, I thought even a good smattering would be worth more to both of us. Individual schools are not listed because this is a district decision, so assume that all schools (given the grade level) will be teaching CRT or some derivitive of it.

    One of those is White Bear Lake School District 624, MN. Cited in the last reference.
    Sixth-grade teacher reportedly divides students into ‘privileged’ and ‘targeted’ groups to illustrate ‘oppression’
    "A 6th-grade choir teacher in Minnesota reportedly taught a lesson to her students involving “types of oppression” by segregating the children into “privileged” and “targeted” groups during an approved “social-emotional lesson.”

    The subject matter is part and parcel of the “critical race theory” agenda being taught in classes across America. Progressive political ideology is reportedly being forced upon young students and many parents have no idea it is happening.

    Odelis Anderson teaches at Sunrise Park Middle School near St. Paul, Minnesota. It is unclear exactly what a lesson on oppression has to do with musical instruction but that is what she tasked her students with during a remote learning session."


    reason.com
    nypost.com
    criticalrace.org
    bizpacreview.com


  54. by Curt_Anderson on November 29, 2022 1:56 pm
    OD,
    Did you look at the link that Reason provided? Here are all the NEA's references to CRT:


    A. Share and publicize, through existing channels, information already available on critical race theory (CRT) -- what it is and what it is not; have a team of staffers for members who want to learn more and fight back against anti-CRT rhetoric; and share information with other NEA members as well as their community members.

    E. Conduct a virtual listening tour that will educate members on the tools and resources needed to defend honesty in education including but not limited to tools like CRT.


    I don't see anything there that is evidence that CRT being taught in public schools. What do you see?


  55. by Donna on November 29, 2022 1:57 pm

    Well again, I'm not seeing any evidence that any curriculum is even suggesting to teachers that they should insruct White students that they're racist because they're White.


  56. by HatetheSwamp on November 29, 2022 2:11 pm

    Donna,

    You are the ostrich of SS. No one approaches you!


  57. by oldedude on November 29, 2022 6:05 pm
    ditto. I thought she was bad earlier, but now it's useless. And I don't think her head is in the sand.


  58. by oldedude on November 29, 2022 6:14 pm
    And I already commented how this works. You just chose not to read it. So I have no empathy for your wanton ignorance.


  59. by Donna on November 30, 2022 8:22 am

    Oh stop your whining - both of you. Neither of you have shown any evidence that any public school curriculum is instructing teachers to instruct White students that they're racist because they're White. Either put up or shut up.

    I'm not denying that some teachers are teaching that IMO wrongheaded idea, though. In fact, I'm saying that I'm sure many probably have.


  60. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2022 9:24 am

    Donna,

    Yikes, man!

    I've already linked you to an article that proves that the Act was written to prohibit the teaching of CRT in public schools AND that the law was challenged by people who not only favor but actually do teach CRT in public schools! WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR BELOVED COURT RULING IS ABOUT?

    You are a curiosity on CRT. Do you believe in it?, or, do you simply favor it because it's the latest progressive Swampcult cause du jour!!!!!?


  61. by Donna on November 30, 2022 9:58 am

    There's nothing in CRT


  62. by Donna on November 30, 2022 10:08 am

    I've never taken a course in Critical Race Theory. Since it isn't a science, CRT is going to be whatever the instructor thinks it is.

    Core tenets of CRT

    From the American Bar Association, Purdue University, and Brittanica

    The belief that race is a culturally invented category used to oppress people of color.

    The law and legal institutions in the United States are inherently racist insofar as they function to create and maintain social, political, and economic inequalities between white and nonwhite people.

    Rejection of popular understandings about racism, such as arguments that confine racism to a few “bad apples.” CRT recognizes that racism is codified in law, embedded in structures, and woven into public policy. CRT rejects claims of meritocracy or “colorblindness.” CRT recognizes that it is the systemic nature of racism that bears primary responsibility for reproducing racial inequality.

    Recognition of the relevance of people’s everyday lives to scholarship. This includes embracing the lived experiences of people of color, including those preserved through storytelling, and rejecting deficit-informed research that excludes the epistemologies of people of color.


    ***

    I don't see anything in there about promoting racial guilt or asking White students to renounce their Whiteness. I'd have to take a Critical Race Theory course to critique it while keeping in mind that my instructor's take on CRT might be different than another instructor's take on it.






    crossing-the-divide.org


  63. by oldedude on November 30, 2022 10:44 am
    You haven't read any of my posts. Please don't tell us to "put up or shut up" if you haven't bothered to look at the other side. That's extremely rude and less than truthful.


    Critical Race Theory (CRT) has ignited a backlash from people across the world, who are concerned about what the ideology promotes. Christopher Rufo, who wrote about the theory in The Wall Street Journal, argues that CRT is “a radical ideology seeking to use race as a means of promoting moral, social, and political revolution.” Because of this, parent groups in the United States are opposing the theory, while “legislators in 24 states have proposed or enacted legislation to stop public schools from promoting such things as collective guilt,” writes Kane-Berman. Below, the freelance journalist explores the concept of CRT through the lens of cancel culture and the divide it creates.

    In a nutshell, CRT stigmatises all whites (including “woke” ones) as racist oppressors while equally stereotyping all blacks as helpless victims who need an immensely powerful state to “liberate” them. This is not merely a “theory”. It is a political project which relies on inculcating feelings of guilt so as to shame whites into silence, while perpetuating a sense of victimhood among blacks. CRT is thus fundamentally at odds with the ideals of traditional liberalism – among them equality before the law, the presumption of innocence, and viewing people as individuals rather than as members of groups. CRT is indeed itself a racist ideology.


    The original article on this that is referenced is in the third reference. If you have a subscription you can get to it.

    Italics Eight Big Reasons Critical Race Theory Is Terrible for Dealing with Racism
    Critical Race Theory…

    •believes racism is present in every aspect of life, every relationship, and every interaction and therefore has its advocates look for it everywhere

    •relies upon “interest convergence” (white people only give black people opportunities and freedoms when it is also in their own interests) and therefore doesn’t trust any attempt to make racism better

    •is against free societies and wants to dismantle them and replace them with something its advocates control

    only treats race issues as “socially constructed groups,” so there are no individuals in Critical Race Theory

    •believes science, reason, and evidence are a “white” way of knowing and that storytelling and lived experience are a “black” alternative, which hurts everyone, especially black people

    •rejects all potential alternatives, like colorblindness, as forms of racism, making itself the only allowable game in town (which is totalitarian)

    •acts like anyone who disagrees with it must do so for racist and white supremacist reasons, even if those people are black (which is also totalitarian)

    •cannot be satisfied, so it becomes a kind of activist black hole that threatens to destroy everything it is introduced into


    biznews.com
    wsj.com
    newdiscourses.com


  64. by Donna on November 30, 2022 11:11 am

    Actually I read that before. What I said in my previous post stands.



  65. by oldedude on November 30, 2022 11:42 am
    So what is it that you want? You're not using any logic, nor those that actually know and understand the theory. So I'm at a loss. This sound a lot like curt and the SAR issue. The "don't give me the facts, my mind is made up" bullsht.


  66. by Donna on November 30, 2022 11:44 am

    See Curt's new topic thread.


  67. by oldedude on November 30, 2022 11:58 am
    old topic, new thread, same bullsht spewed by marxists.


  68. by Donna on November 30, 2022 12:38 pm

    "Marxists" LOL! Beleieve what you must, I suppose. Anything to maintain your anger level I guess, right?



  69. by oldedude on November 30, 2022 1:00 pm
    So let's see.......
    You agree with CRT, which is evident because you and curt have argued for it this entire time.

    "Critical race theory (CRT) was officially organized in 1989, at the first annual Workshop on Critical Race Theory, though its intellectual origins go back much farther, to the 1960s and ’70s. Its immediate precursor was the critical legal studies (CLS) movement, which dedicated itself to examining how the law and legal institutions serve the interests of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of the poor and marginalized. (CLS, an offshoot of Marxist-oriented critical theory, may also be viewed as a radicalization of early 20th-century legal realism, a school of legal philosophy according to which judicial decision making, especially at the appellate level, is influenced as much by nonlegal—political or ideological—factors as by precedent and principles of legal reasoning.)"

    mmmmmmmm..... You support it more than not. At least isle's up front about what he believes, which is refreshing.
    britannica.com


  70. by Donna on November 30, 2022 1:07 pm

    I've never even heard of CLS.

    So we've been conversing for years. Do you really think that I'm a Marxist?





  71. by oldedude on November 30, 2022 6:14 pm
    Yes. And you should have read my post. It's the history of CRT, which you fall in to. You support it, you should know something about what you say you believe. Otherwise, you're an empty shell of a person.


  72. by Donna on December 1, 2022 6:14 am

    "Yes".

    LOL!

    If, after all of the time we've been conversing you believe I'm a Marxist, then I have to reassess if it's worthwhile for me to engage in conversation with you anymore.



  73. by oldedude on December 1, 2022 7:25 pm
    I just use the facts you present to me. You've supported both of the things the LWO has made their primary means to use for now. And that's just a start.


  74. by Donna on December 2, 2022 11:29 am

    I would desctibe myself as more of a social democrat.

    From Wikipedia:

    Democratic socialists and social democrats reject the idea that socialism can be accomplished only through extra-legal class conflict and a proletarian revolution. The relationship between Marx and other socialist thinkers and organizations—rooted in Marxism's "scientific" and anti-utopian socialism, among other factors—has divided Marxists from other socialists since Marx's life.

    ***

    It asks fir a citation, but to me that sounds right. But IMO it depends on what you call socialism. If it means no private ownership, then I'm not a socialist, and neither are social democrats.

    I've often talked about my vision of a world econony that's based on human need as opposed to profits. I say "my vision" because it's obvious that we as a species won't even come close to attaining that in the foreseeable future. Nevertheless I think that a truly civilized society would be based on that vision.



  75. by oldedude on December 2, 2022 12:27 pm
    I look at the information you support. CRT, Hypersexual indoctrination in elementary school.

    Although I think that's where you "feel" you belong, I'm just looking at the issues.


  76. by Donna on December 2, 2022 12:30 pm

    What would you consider as "hypersexual indoctrination"?


  77. by oldedude on December 2, 2022 12:49 pm
    Telling a second or third grader they can chose their gender. Not bringing parents in to the conversation. We had this discussion.


  78. by oldedude on December 2, 2022 1:04 pm
    It's the gender identity issue. I didn't really phrase that well.


  79. by Donna on December 2, 2022 1:19 pm

    Unlike many on the left, I don't support ANY public school teacher instructing students about gender identity. I thought you understood that. OTOH I don't expect you or anyone to remember everything I post.

    In fact a couple of weeks ago I posted that if a gender non-conforming student is being harassed by another student, the teacher should treat it as a discipline problem rather than telling the student that they have to accept the student's gender expression. And you agreed with me.


  80. by oldedude on December 2, 2022 2:18 pm
    Sorry, yes, I do remember that. There were several posts. We agreed on a few of the points openly. My bad on this.


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