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Law selectors, pages, etc.
Supreme Court upholds Arizona voting laws in test of Voting Rights Act "Minoriity groups
By HatetheSwamp
July 1, 2021 9:36 am
Category: Law

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I'm linking to a Pete Williams NBC article.

Here's the NBC headline with its built in pro Swampcult Blue MAGA bias:

Supreme Court upholds restrictive Arizona voting laws in test of Voting Rights Act

The vote was 6-3, with the three moderates all voting for the two laws.

Read the viciously biased article but get this: One important ruling is that ballot harvesting can be banned.

Ballot harvesting is one prominent method employed by the smoke filled room handlers of that perverted and demented doddering old fart from Delaware here in Pennsylvania to swipe the election.

This is a huuuge win for the states who are rewriting election law to diminish the chances that the Dems will steal another election.

I'm guessing it's a clear signal to Merrick Garland that his suit against Georgia's new law is a loser.

Cited and related links:

  1. nbcnews.com

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Comments on "Supreme Court upholds Arizona voting laws in test of Voting Rights Act "Minoriity groups":

  1. by Curt Anderson on July 1, 2021 10:24 am
    The prohibition on "ballot harvesting" means that in Arizona only family members can return mail-in style ballots to the election drop box. An Arizonan couldn't return their invalid neighbor's or a sickly friend's ballot as a favor.

    If you are like me, you don't want unnecessary hurdles for voters. This is what alleged progressives, who were in a snit that Bernie Sanders wasn't the nominee or wanted Jill Stein so they didn't vote for the Democratic nominee, don't understand: Presidents nominated Supreme Court justices. That results in rulings like those

  2. by HatetheSwamp on July 1, 2021 10:57 am
    Y'know if the Dems didn't use 100 ways to cheat through ballot harvesting, no one would oppose it. The truth is, though, that anyone who can stick their electric bill in the mail can vote without their ballot being harvested...

    ...and that's how the Supreme Court was able to uphold the law.

  3. by HatetheSwamp on July 1, 2021 12:07 pm
    Here's a video from CBSN. The commentator, Jessica Levinson, is less biased than good old Pete.
     View Video

  4. by Curt Anderson on July 1, 2021 12:20 pm
    We pay our bills including the utilities electronically. If I had to mail something, I might be find a stamp around the house, although I don't know off hand what the postage is on an election ballot which consists of a secrecy envelope inside a signed envelope inside an outer envelope plus whatever number of ballot pages.

    That's why we walk over to the election ballot drop box a few blocks away.

  5. by HatetheSwamp on July 1, 2021 12:25 pm
    Curt,

    Here in Pennsylvania, mail-in ballots are postage paid. I'm certain that they are in Oregon.

  6. by Curt Anderson on July 1, 2021 12:27 pm
    They are now. But not until the past few years. I suspect they are not pre-postage paid in every state.

  7. by Curt Anderson on July 1, 2021 12:37 pm
    That was video of Trump saying "...a brave young man from Ohio was sent to a plant...'

  8. by islander on July 2, 2021 6:11 am
    As Heather Cox Richardson said in her daily letter;

    "The court also suggested that concerns about voter fraud—which is so rare as to be virtually nonexistent—are legitimate reasons to restrict voting.

    We are reliving the Reconstruction years after the Civil War." H.C.R.

    The fact that there are quite a few people who have been led to accept (and in some cases believe) that kind of thinking as a valid reason to restrict people's voting rights is the most dangerous part of what we are witnessing.

  9. by HatetheSwamp on July 2, 2021 6:43 am

    isle,

    There was immense cheating in the 2020 election. Nearly half of likely voters are convinced of it.

    Still, the most convincing evidence is the hissy fit Dems are pitching over the new laws designed to improve election integrity and the bizarre overreaction of Dems to this Supreme Court decision.

    There's no way that Clouseau got 16 million more votes than Hillary!!! No way at all.

    I've linked to the Spectator.org article describing what you have to believe to think that Joe really won. The Creationists' belief in a 6,000 year old earth is more reasonable.
    spectator.org

  10. by islander on July 3, 2021 4:07 am
    HTS, it appears that you still can’t quite understand the logical fallacy of your arguments. I’ll try to help you with it again.

    non-sequitur;

    non sequitur literally means "it does not follow


    “There was immense cheating in the 2020 election Nearly half of likely voters are convinced of it”---HTS

    Even if it were actually true that nearly half of likely voters thought there was immense cheating in the 2020 election it doesn’t follow that there was immense cheating.


  11. by HatetheSwamp on July 4, 2021 5:39 am

    Of course it doesn't matter how many are convinced that there was cheating. It's what many people believe.

    The reason Catron's article on Spectator.org is so flummoxing to your side is that he points out that you BELIEVE what you believe about the 020 election just as my side believes what we believe...

    ...and, of course, he makes the point that what you believe requires an Olympic quality Kierkegaardian leap of faith.

    One issue that 21st century progressives have to deal with in order to achieve intellectual integrity is your tendency to be sanctimonious.

    You assume that, because you believe something, no matter how illogical or irrational, because you believe it, it's the truth.

    Catron points out that what you believe is hard to believe. No woke Swampcult Blue MAGA here has ever attempted to justify their faith based on what Catron wrote. They all reject it...but, without reason.

    The most telling difference between you and me, isle, is that I'm open and transparent in acknowledging that my opinions are rooted in belief but, as Catron observes, your beliefs are rooted in some pretty dern silly assumptions...and you don't face up to the truths he uncovers.

    Certainly. Clouseau is President. The House confirmed that on that awful day in January.

    Yet many of us BELIEVE, based on a boatload of evidence that the smoke filled room handlers of that perverted and demented doddering old fart from Delaware cheated him into office.

    From over here, it seems that you believe what you believe simply because it's convenient for you to believe it...and without realism, or reason.

  12. by islander on July 4, 2021 4:44 pm
    HTS, you claim “[I] assume that, because [I] believe something, no matter how illogical or irrational, because [I] believe it, it's the truth.”

    LOL !!! Are you dyslexic (seeing things backwards)? Thinking that something is true because you believe it’s true is your shtick! Have you forgotten your mantra. “Subjectivity is truth”. Pay attention to the posts you are responding to!


  13. by Curt Anderson on July 4, 2021 5:39 pm
    "Certainly. Clouseau is President. The House confirmed that on that awful day in January." -HtS

    Was the day awful for you for the same reason I viewed it as awful (theft, vanxalism, destruction, injuries and death), or was it because Biden was certified?

    TIP: If you want to use tags to make type bold or to italicize, there is cheatsheet next to where you compose your comment.

  14. by HatetheSwamp on July 5, 2021 3:54 am
    "HTS, you claim “[I] assume that, because [I] believe something, no matter how illogical or irrational, because [I] believe it, it's the truth.”

    LOL !!! Are you dyslexic (seeing things backwards)? Thinking that something is true because you believe it’s true is your shtick! Have you forgotten your mantra. “Subjectivity is truth”. Pay attention to the posts you are responding to!" -isle

    Oy! Apparently, I hit a nerve there, eh! I pointed out that you are just as human as am I." That's gotta hurt! But, it needed to be done.

    And, no. Embracing that subjectivity is truth empowers people to be honest about who they are, accepting that they do believe. And, as far as others are concerned, it frees the honest believer from passing judgment on people who believe differently.

    Again, that's where the two of us differ.

    I can easily accept you for who you are: a fellow believer, albeit a believer in something completely at odds with what I believe. You are as much a believer as I am, even though you lack the courage and authenticity to admit it...EMBRACE it.

    And, as the Catron article points out, you are a believer in something that is pretty dern preposterous.

  15. by HatetheSwamp on July 5, 2021 4:47 am
    Was the day awful for you for the same reason I viewed it as awful (theft, vanxalism, destruction, injuries and death), or was it because Biden was certified? -Curt

    It was an awful day for me because of the mayhem related to the riot. And, for the anti-MAGA myth that has been spun since then. A micro fraction of the crowd that attended Trump's rally that day participated in the riot. Unlike the woke Swampcult Blue MAGAs who accepted the BLM/Antifa inspired riots in Portland, Minneapolis, et. al., the great majority of the antiSwamp denounced the Capitol from the moment it began.

    As far as that perverted and demented doddering old fart from Delaware being acknowledged by the House as the victor in the election, the fix already was in.

    Tammany Hall 2020 did a masterful job taking advantage of COVID-19 in rigging the election by diddling the results in selected places.

    As that dust was settling, by that time, as angry as I was over the injustice of the swiped election, a sense of awe was forming in me over the perfection of the con that Tammany Hall executed to perfection.

  16. by islander on July 5, 2021 5:00 am
    Trying to backpedal just as fast as you can eh! HTS !

    You forgot that I can justify my belief that Biden won the election with objective facts that neither you nor anyone else can deny. You try as best you can to justify your beliefs by using articles of conjecture from a right wing tabloid magazine!, you have to admit, that’s pretty pathetic.

    But, like I said, you can believe absolutely anything you want! The big hurdle you have to overcome is your inability to justify your beliefs. If you expect me to ever take you seriously you have to be able to give credible evidence of widespread election fraud. You’ve been unable to do that. You’ll be able to see things much more clearly when you can start looking at the facts rather than conjecture and conspiracy theories.

  17. by HatetheSwamp on July 5, 2021 5:53 am
    You forgot that I can justify my belief that Biden won the election with objective facts that neither you nor anyone else can deny. You try as best you can to justify your beliefs by using articles of conjecture from a right wing tabloid magazine!, you have to admit, that’s pretty pathetic. -isle

    How, living in the real world, can you write those words sincerely!

    I'll grant the possibility that you CAN justify your belief. What I won't grant that you've actually done that here on SS.

    As long as you're here, I'll think of you as Ponderer 2.0, a person who lives entirely within the world they've created, and without interest in engaging reality.

    po does that with innocence, with naívete, with charm. You, on the other hand, do it with anger, bitterness.

    Take a stab at an objective reply to the issues Catron raises in his article, then we'll go from there. It's an easy thing to say you've made your point objectively. If you have, do it here.

    I assume that your age is similar to Curt's and mine, and that you're a boomer, or close to it. How people can get to our age and still hold on to the conviction that our beliefs are anything but opinions amazes me.

    Still, I'm perfectly willing to invite you to make your case. Demonstrate objectively and factually that Tammany Hall 2020 didn't swipe the election for that perverted and demented doddering old fart from Delaware.

    As the song says, "Hit me with your best shot. Fire away."

  18. by islander on July 5, 2021 12:20 pm
    Here are “just a few” of the objective facts that justify my belief that Biden won the election and Trump lost. These are not speculation or subjective opinion, everything you read here actually happened.

    In Georgia, Biden’s win was verified three times: with an initial count, a second conducted by hand and then a recount. The state also conducted an audit of voting machines to ensure the votes recorded electronically matched paper records submitted by voters. A limited review of voter signatures found no evidence of widespread illegal voting.

    Trump’s recently departed attorney general, William Barr, said he saw no evidence of widespread fraud.

    Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell said “ the mob was fed lies ” by Trump and others. “They were provoked by the president and other powerful people, and they tried to use fear and violence to stop a specific proceeding of a branch of the federal government,” McConnell said. He vowed a “safe and successful” inauguration of Biden.

    The votes were counted and certified and Biden won the election.

    The courts including the Supreme Court said the same thing.

    Election officials from around the country (from both sides) agreed.

    Republican and Democratic governors signed off on the results, including Trump allies Gov. Brian Kemp of Georgia and Gov. Doug Ducey of Arizona who both certified that Biden won their states.

    All Trumps legal bids to overturn the election failed.

    And then there’s this:

    The members of Election Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council (GCC) Executive Committee – Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) Assistant Director Bob Kolasky, U.S. Election Assistance Commission Chair Benjamin Hovland, National Association of Secretaries of State (NASS) President Maggie Toulouse Oliver, National Association of State Election Directors (NASED) President Lori Augino, and Escambia County (Florida) Supervisor of Elections David Stafford – and the members of the Election Infrastructure Sector Coordinating Council (SCC) – Chair Brian Hancock (Unisyn Voting Solutions), Vice Chair Sam Derheimer (Hart InterCivic), Chris Wlaschin (Election Systems & Software), Ericka Haas (Electronic Registration Information Center), and Maria Bianchi (Democracy Works) - released the following statement:

    “The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.

    “When states have close elections, many will recount ballots. All of the states with close results in the 2020 presidential race have paper records of each vote, allowing the ability to go back and count each ballot if necessary. This is an added benefit for security and resilience. This process allows for the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors. There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.

    “Other security measures like pre-election testing, state certification of voting equipment, and the U.S. Election Assistance Commission’s (EAC) certification of voting equipment help to build additional confidence in the voting systems used in 2020.

    “While we know there are many unfounded claims and opportunities for misinformation about the process of our elections, we can assure you we have the utmost confidence in the security and integrity of our elections, and you should too. When you have questions, turn to elections officials as trusted voices as they administer elections.”


  19. by HatetheSwamp on July 6, 2021 4:59 am
    Here are “just a few” of the objective facts that justify my belief that Biden won the election and Trump lost. These are not speculation or subjective opinion, everything you read here actually happened.

    So, isle, I take it that I've won you over?

    You are presenting a compilation of factual data which lead you to "believe" that that perverted and demented doddering old fart from Delaware legitimately won the election.

    I do notice that you side stepped what Catron said you have to believe to think Joe won the election.

    I have an advantage over you in that I've lived almost all of my life in a culture ehere election fraud is well established and I can easily see how it was done.

    In Philadelphia, there was substantial ballot harvesting before and on election day. There were, in fact, attempts by Philadelphia GOPs to monitor the ballot harvesting but they couldn't keep up with it. Then, after the election, Philly Dems were blatant in interfering with GOPs observing, not even participating in, the counting of votes. A judge even issued an injunction against the Dems' practices.

    What Dems in Philadelphia...and in other parts of Pennsylvania did was take advantage of late changes in mail-in balloting practices, separating the ballots from their security envelopes, so that forged signatures could not be identified. (As I recall, Georgia Dems pulled a similar scam.)

    It's powerfully noteworthy to me how well Clouseau did in purple states with Dem governors. In Florida and Ohio, Joe's vote total matched expectations but Trump won more easily than was anticipated.

    But, in Michigan and Pennsylvania, as in other Dem governor states, Trump drew hefty support. But, Joe????! Joe's vote in Dem controlled states vastly exceeded expectation. And, with ballot harvesting and suspicious vote counting, who's really surprised.

    Considering the issues Catron raised and the fact that that perverted and demented doddering old fart from Delaware significantly overachieved, not so curiously, in places where Dems controlled the casting and counting of ballots, its hard not to question the integrity of the election.

    Thanks for organizing the data convinces you Joe won. However it doesn't convince me.

  20. by islander on July 6, 2021 11:38 am
    So, isle, I take it that I've won you over?

    You are presenting a compilation of factual data which lead you to "believe" that that perverted and demented doddering old fart from Delaware legitimately won the election.

    You won me over to what?

    You’re correct that I presented a compilation of “some” of the factual data that I told you I would, That is, some of the factual data that I use to justify my “belief” that there was no credible evidence of widespread cheating in the 2020 election and Biden won that election by winning the popular vote and the electoral votes.


    You’ve provided absolutely no credible evidence or factual data to demonstrate that the election was fraudulent because of widespread cheating. Conspiracy theories, rumors, and speculation do no equal factual data or credible evidence of your claim.

    And of course I don’t expect to convince you of anything. As I said, “You can [and will] believe anything you want”. You don’t need to justify your beliefs or have credible evidence for them.

  21. by Curt Anderson on July 6, 2021 12:23 pm
    Here are some facts on what HtS thinks are Democratic shenanigans:
    "The Pennsylvania Supreme Court [including the Republican justices] has issued a unanimous ruling declaring that mail-in ballots cannot be rejected on the basis of signature comparison, a decision hailed as a victory by Democrats and voter rights groups. Critics say signature analysis is a common tactic used to slow vote counting or to have ballots rejected outright."

    The GOP voter suppression tactic is to reject as many ballots as possible in Democratic districts because of supposed signature discrepancies.

    Even if some of the signatures on ballots were "forged" as HtS suggests, that is a one-vote-at-a-time strategy in a state that native-son Biden won by more than 80,000 votes. To believe that would work, you have to believe that a conspiracy to alter the votes of more than 80,000 registered voters could go undetected.
    whyy.org

  22. by HatetheSwamp on July 6, 2021 1:25 pm
    "The Pennsylvania Supreme Court [including the Republican justices] has issued a unanimous ruling declaring that mail-in ballots cannot be rejected on the basis of signature comparison, a decision hailed as a victory by Democrats and voter rights groups. Critics say signature analysis is a common tactic used to slow vote counting or to have ballots rejected outright." -Curt

    The Pennsylvania Supreme Court is a highly politicized gang of worthless hacks.

    My guess is that if the US Supreme Court rules on a law that requires that mail-in signatures have to match, it will uphold any and every law that requires it.

  23. by HatetheSwamp on July 6, 2021 1:31 pm
    Even if some of the signatures on ballots were "forged" as HtS suggests, that is a one-vote-at-a-time strategy in a state that native-son Biden won by more than 80,000 votes. To believe that would work, you have to believe that a conspiracy to alter the votes of more than 80,000 registered voters could go undetected.

    And, that's the genius of Tammany Hall 2020. No one can guess how much ballot harvesting took place in Philadelphia, where Dems can get away with virtually anything they want.

    They cheated coming and going, in the casting of votes and in the counting!

  24. by Curt Anderson on July 6, 2021 2:01 pm
    HtS,
    So how would this alleged ballot harvesting and signature-forging scheme work against Trump?

    Are you thinking the ballot harvesters convinced people to vote for Biden? (That sounds like old-fashioned political campaigning)

    They had 80,000+ voters sign their ballot envelopes with the ballots blank? (It would be amazing that nobody spilled the beans on that conspiracy)

    Or maybe you imagine that Democrats stole more than 80,000 ballots, and voted for Biden 80,000+ times? (Yet there were not 80,000 people complaining they didn't get their mail-in ballots)

    What theory of the election theft am I missing?

  25. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2021 5:23 am
    First, are you implying that ballot harvesting doesn't take place?

  26. by islander on July 7, 2021 6:46 am
    Ballot harvesting or “Ballot collecting is the gathering and submitting of completed absentee or mail-in voter ballots by third-party individuals, volunteers or workers, rather than submission by voters themselves directly to ballot collection sites.
    * Wikipedia

    It’s a crime to mishandle or tamper with those ballots. “in North Carolina's 9th Congressional District in 2018. There, Republican operative McCrae Dowless was indicted for mishandling absentee ballots in an effort to sway the election for a pastor named Mark Harris. The election was overturned and Harris, who denied knowing what Dowless was doing, withdrew his candidacy.”



  27. by Curt Anderson on July 7, 2021 9:02 am
    "First, are you implying that ballot harvesting doesn't take place?" --HatetheSwamp

    I knew you would be unable to answer the question about how you imagined "ballot harvesting" or forged signatures stole the election, because there is no credible answer.

    As Islander points out, ballot harvesting is not a pernicious activity. Only one state in the entire US requires that the voter themselves be the only person allowed to drop their ballot into a mailbox or ballot drop box. Everywhere else the voter can select a person to hand their ballot in for them, although about a dozen states limit who those people can be.
    ballotpedia.org

  28. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2021 10:07 am
    Ballot harvesting or “Ballot collecting is the gathering and submitting of completed absentee or mail-in voter ballots by third-party individuals, volunteers or workers, rather than submission by voters themselves directly to ballot collection sites.

    How naíve.

    It's collecting unused ballots and filling them out, when Dems in Philadelphia do it, for the purpose of cheating.

    One variation is for Dem operatives to go into nursing homes when mail-in ballots are arriving and saying, "Oh, Maybelle, there's your mail-in ballot. Would you like me to help you fill it out and take it to the post office for you?", and, of course if Missy Maybelle planned to vote GOP, filling it out Joe. There are many variations on the scam.

    And, in 020, many people received mail-in ballots who didn't request them. That's why ballot harvesting was such a powerful tool in 020.

    It was fairly common in Pennsylvania in 020 for voters to show up at the polls on election day only to be told that a mail-in ballot had already been registered in their name.

    Are you guys really this naíve, or are you dense, or are you willfully blind!!!!!?

  29. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2021 10:11 am
    As Islander points out, ballot harvesting is not a pernicious activity.

    I'll repeat my question to isle. Are you naíve, dense or willfully blind!!!!!?

    I get it that, for you Curt, not being from an area not renowned for political corruption and election shenanigans, this may all be foreign to you. But, it's SOP in these parts.

  30. by Curt Anderson on July 7, 2021 11:08 am
    HtS,
    Let me guess: you have no proof or evidence that Democrats were filling out the ballots of nursing home residents in Philadelphia or anywhere else. That would be ballot tampering or some related election crime. I'll explain why your fact-free theory is preposterous.

    Your big theory of Joe Biden stealing Pennsylvania's electoral votes is that Democrats went into nursing home and filled out the ballots of residents. Biden won by more than 80,000 popular votes. It so happens that there are on average 80,000 residents in Pennsylvania nursing homes. (see link).

    So your theory must assume that EVERY nursing home resident is a registered Pennsylvania voter, a would-be Trump voter, and that Democrats changed the votes of every resident. Not to mention, visitation to nursing homes was severely restricted because of COVID. Even family members couldn't visit loved ones.

    Pardon me if I laugh at that improbable theory.
    phca.org

  31. by Curt Anderson on July 7, 2021 11:31 am
    HtS,
    Besides your ridiculous nursing home voter fraud theory which I debunked above, your unrequested mail-in ballot theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny either.

    Some Pennsylvania voters confused mail-in ballot application forms with mail-in ballots. In fact, they were complaining about receiving what they mistakenly assumed to be ballots before the ballots were mailed out.

    Political parties, political campaigns and voter advocacy groups have mailed application forms to people listed on their contact lists. This is legal under Pennsylvania law.
    mcall.com

  32. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2021 12:13 pm
    Besides your ridiculous nursing home voter fraud theory which I debunked above, your unrequested mail-in ballot theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny either. -Curt

    I missed you debunking the nursing home fraud thing. This is a lengthy thread so if you can copy it for me...

    You do know that was such a thing as Tammany Hall and that Mayor Daley of Chicago was unabashed in his cronyism?

    The Dems have been the party of election fraud for nearly 200 years.

    I'm really not sure what the answer to my question is, i.e., Are you naíve or stupid or willfully blind. What I'm certain of that the answer ain't NONE OF THE ABOVE.

  33. by Curt Anderson on July 7, 2021 12:24 pm
    "I missed you debunking the nursing home fraud thing. This is a lengthy thread so if you can copy it for me..." -- HtS

    Scroll up a bit and read post #30 in this thread.

    Tammany Hall and Mayor Richard J. Daley of Chicago have both been gone for about 50 years or more. You'll need to find a more current (and living) suspect to blame for your paranoid imaginings.

  34. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2021 12:55 pm
    Mayor Daley and Tammany Hall revealed the long history of corruption and fraud in Dem DNA.

    Here's a more current slip o' the tongue that shows the truth, specifically, about Philadelphia.

    You can still watch election night coverage on most of the networks from 2016. Former Philadelphia Mayor and Pennsylvania Governor and Friend of Bill, Ed Rendell was on, I think it was, MSNBC late at night when Trump was beginning to narrow Hillary's lead. In a moment of unusual candor, Rendell said that he was confident that the machine in the city (Philadelphia) would produce enough votes to win the state for Hillary.

    In 016, the machine failed. It more than made up for it four years later.

    You probably know that I live in a retirement community...in PENNSYLVANIA. Down one floor and a hallway there's a connection to the nursing care area of the community. You're correct that, in Pennsylvania, during COVID, in the nursing care area of THIS community, visiting was restricted. (In fact, when my mom was ill with COVID in another home, even family was unable to visit.) However, retirement communities here, at least, couldn't survive financially without large numbers of volunteers. Restrictions on the activities of volunteers were certainly increased during COVID but they were on campus. And, certainly by October and November, when mail-in ballots were available, our place was absolutely filthy with volunteers. Believe me. Ballot harvesting could be done.

    But, please understand. That's not the only way ballot harvesting could be done. It's merely one example.

  35. by Curt Anderson on July 7, 2021 1:09 pm
    "That's [nursing homes] not the only way ballot harvesting could be done. It's merely one example." --HtS

    But you cannot cite any credible examples, right?

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